Most people in capitalist countries never leave the economic bracket they were born into. Capitalism is a primitive system of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death.
Capitalism is a primitive system of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death.
As is China. As was the USSR.
What you’ve described is just humans, not capitalism. Alas.
I know right!
🤡
No, you really don’t
Le epic hooman nature means we can’t fix anything. Amirite fellow redooters?
Have you considered human nature?
Alas, checkmate tankie
Have you considered human nature?
Yes. That’s why I said what I said.
That’s a masked man fallacy
I disagree.
Alas, you’ve made an appeal to the one true scotsman fallacy. Try again
That’s a disagreement fallacy.
Minus 50 points
You’re right all humans are irredeemable garbage and we shouldn’t try
You’re right all humans are irredeemable garbage
I didn’t say that.
all humans are irredeemable garbage
Are whales garbage because they indiscriminately scoop up tons of fish? No, they’re surviving. In the same way, one should expect despicable behaviour from humans because surviving is very hard and often requires such behaviour.
Look at the Russians suffering in Ukraine in order to avoid the certain suffering of refusing their dictator’s wishes.
we shouldn’t try
Depends on what it is you’re trying to do.
Even in this conversation you find a way to bring up Ukraine. Human garbage fucking gweilo gammon Redditor begone
Please keep your whataboutism to whales separate from this discussion
we’re making fun of your toddler-level lib brainrot. This is what 4 years old believe.
The “Humans” your talking about all have names. So unless you think the “peasants” are as equally responsible for their explotiation as their oppressors you should start naming names. I’ll start for you. Henry Kissinger.
unless you think the “peasants” are as equally responsible for their explotiation as their oppressors you should start naming names
I have no idea what you’re talking about.
No you’re wrong. The USSR was a truly more equal society, dramatically more equal, provable in the empirical sense by the Gini coefficient.
It also achieved greater long term average growth, also provable empirically by measuring the size of the economy from the revolution to the fall of the Berlin Wall. Even if you include the destruction of the apocalyptic world war 2, a vicious revolution and counter revolutionary civil war, Hitler murdering tens of millions, the Cold War which saw insane spending on military, and the poor economic performance of the 1980s following the oil shocks of the late 70s…. All of that and still it was the greatest economic growth story of the 20th century when averaged over its lifetime.
Equality is good and a choice that can be made. You are eating the propaganda of your masters when you tell yourself that it’s somehow the natural state of man. Some inevitability that must be accepted for the greater good.
It’s not inevitable and it doesn’t lead to a greater good.
No you’re wrong.
I disagree.
more equal
But still a primitive system of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death.
Equality is … a choice that can be made.
I don’t think I can choose to be equal to others. And I don’t think members of elites will reduce the likelihood of propagating their genes by choosing to make me equal to them. Because they haven’t.
Some inevitability that must be accepted for the greater good.
You’re confused. I don’t believe it must be accepted for the geater good. I simply recognise the futility of wishing the world was not as it is: a primitive system of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death.
It’s not inevitable
I disagree. The evidence would appear to be to the contrary.
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I simply recognise the futility of wishing the world was not as it is: a primitive system of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death.
You said “you’re confused” then said you viewed the world exactly as I said you did
you viewed the world exactly as I said you did you fucking moron
You claimed that I believed the view must be accepted “for the greater good” which I do not. That’s what you’re confused about. As I said.
So you accept it just because you like being socially inferior to some inbreds who were born rich?
So you accept it just because you like being socially inferior to some inbreds who were born rich?
No.
Then why DO you accept it? You seem to agree that things are like that. Yet you accept the world as it is so much as to argue with people who refuse to accept it and wish to build towards something better. The world was made this way by people, and we as people can change it.
Boo comparing developed countries to countries that immediately left colonized feudal society and rejected the world order at the same time is not 1:1
is not 1:1
I didn’t say it was.
You blamed the problems of humanity on humans, not taking into account of material circumstances ans historical context of different places of the world. You didn’t say that specifically but you generalized enough to not make difference.
not taking into account of material circumstances ans historical context of different places of the world
I don’t believe that material circumstances or historical context alters the truth of what I said.
You barely said anything so you might want to reassess that opinion.
The verbosity of my own speaking and writing doesn’t effect my reasoning about my opinions, it effects your reasoning about my opinions. There’s no reason for me to reassess my opinion because you perceive a lack.
Text is an incomplete method of communication. Making short, generalized statements is only playing to the mediums weaknesses. When writing, you gotta try and consider the possible ways its going to be interpreted, cus without tone and body language and rhythm, it’s pretty open.
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If its not 1:1 then its not “just humans.”
I disagree.
Alas
Elaborate.
After you.
Your really going to make me post an essay? Well, fine I’ve got time.
First we will start off with this excerpt from Peter Kropotkin's Mutual Aid:A Factor of Evolution,
“There is actually no difference between anything”
LOL straw man argument if ever there was one
Your argument was a straw man massive enough to burn Nicholas Cage inside, don’t go accusing other people.
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You straw manned, you steel manned, you no true Scotsman-ed
You have no choice but to anandon communism now
What you’ve described is just humans
You made the broadest comparison possible you fucking dork
Firstly, that’s not a comparison, that’s a correction. Secondly jumping from what you wrote above to “there’s actually no difference between anything” doesn’t make sense. It’s not even funny, it’s just nonsense.
you’ve gotta say something that makes sense if you don’t want to be rebutted with nonsense
Edit: well, no I expect people to respond with nonsense regardless.
Then why are you here? Hog out or log out.
The human nature argument is not an argument at all because everything we do is ‘human nature’. What is far more evident is that humans will adapt to their environment to succeed or find a way to change the environment, and so when you have a system which promotes certain behaviours it is ‘nature’ to follow them and act in a certain way to take advantage, or to find a way to change the environment they are in.
This is such a one dimensional view of ‘human nature’ because you should need to define what it is before you make such a statement. Why is greed any more human nature than care and empathy? It’s almost always been projection or ignorance when I hear people say that ‘capitalism is human nature.’ There will always be sociopaths and psychopaths, but why then have a system that promotes the worst traits of humanity at the expense of the rest rather than one that serves to find the greatest benefit for the most people? You act like greedy and corrupt people can’t be held down or put in check, and conveniently ignore that the environment humans are now raised in is entirely centred around poorly regulated capitalism.
This is such a one dimensional view of ‘human nature’ because you should need to define what it is before you make such a statement.
I didn’t use the phrase ‘human nature’ in the comment you replied to.
Why is greed any more human nature than care and empathy?
I haven’t said that it is.
when I hear people say that ‘capitalism is human nature.’
I haven’t said that.
So what is your point, then? That abusing power and killing people is human? Also, calling something ‘human’ basically is another way to describe ‘human nature’ since everything is human nature that one does.
So what is your point, then?
That primitive systems of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death, is what humans in general create, not just capitalists.
That abusing power and killing people is human?
That wasn’t my original point but that is certainly true.
Just false though. You are ignoring how heavily the environment you live in impacts you. It’s literally everything. Living in a hierarchic society that oppresses those below and provides massive benefits for those above just incentivises people to express greedy behaviours because otherwise they will be stuck below to suffer. If you changed the environment one lived in and was educated in, you could create a completely different outcome. It’s no surprise abusive families tend to be cyclical, while it is incredibly rare somebody becomes abusive on their own. Behaviours are learned for the most part.
Also, the whole ‘humans in general’ is just dishonest. The people making the decisions are a minority within a minority. It’s not representative of the larger population. You can say the people participating are supporting it, which is true, but even then it doesn’t mean that they would want the system to be that way in the first place. For many poorer people without opportunities, they have no choice or chance to advance. It’s literally rigged against them.
Abusing power and killing people are acts that humans do. But so is everything, so that isn’t really even a point. Literally everything is we do is ‘human’.
If you want to say ‘humans in general’ create these systems, then why do you think that is anyway?
Just false though.
I disagree.
If you want to say ‘humans in general’ create these systems, then why do you think that is anyway?
Because lying and cheating increases one’s chances of survival. Hence humans lie, cheat and steal and the most “successful” people (read: richest and most powerful) are those who lie, cheat and steal the best.
This is from contemporary philosopher Martin Butler, informed by Spinoza and Schopenhauer:
Martin Butler - Corporeal Fantasy 115 (Business managers and intelligence)
But it doesn’t even to serve to increase the chance of survival past a point. It becomes redundant and if anything makes you a bigger target once you get so high. Eventually, it just becomes needless greed at the expense of others and requires a lack of morals and apathy to continue on. I think the real problem is that people don’t hold others accountable, and because narcissistic and psychopathic people tend to search for power, they are usually the ones ending up in the roles. The issue is that society doesn’t care that it is that way, and that people have used their influence to conditions others into thinking that the system they live in is OK and not completely unjust. So yes, when people are not held accountable, the worst people climb to the top the fastest. Yet, humans have also proven that they can overcome their own instincts and also through their own work managed to make it so that modern day survival is incredibly easily for almost everyone when they didn’t need to. Humans are not bound to act a certain way due to their genetics. It’s usually a reaction to the system they live in and what they are told that causes their behaviours, of course certain people will always end up a certain way, but that is very rare.
You implied it
I disagree.
a very similar problem
But not the same problem. Hence your straw man.
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genocide is more part of human nature than feeding and housing people
I didn’t say that. I can’t imagine how you conjured that up.
I will say that genocide is a part of human nature just as feeding and housing people is.
genocide is a part of human nature
huh
my favorite story about human nature is when the Spanish (who didn’t bathe because of human nature) thought that people were burning incense to praise them as gods, but it was actually because they smelled like a butt hole. nahuas and their neighbors had universal education AND hygiene AND high living standards.
but I can’t argue with human nature, the Americas aren’t full of historical counterfactuals at all.
nahuas and their neighbors had universal education AND hygiene AND high living standards
AND exploitation AND social climbing AND duplicity AND violence AND murder
Edit: AND squalor
but not squalor!
That doesn’t contradict what I said. Human beings must necessarily cooperate and aid each other in order to survive. It’s how our species evolved. However, that doesn’t mean humans only ever aid each other, or even that they care about others except as a means to survive. Humans will cooperate when it’s beneficial and also stab their fellow humans in the back, step on them and exploit them when it’s beneficial. That’s why all we have are systems of elites and peasants, filled with squalor and death. But the species continues because of those systems.
Human nature
nah, its cool. Imma let you indulge yourself on that take. Nothing I or anyone else can say will convince you otherwise.
let you
LOL
>yoooOoOOOOO they thought I was funny!!
Thanks I’ll be here all week!
I don’t think what I’m saying is an ideology, let alone the ideology of capitalists.
Is biology the ideology of capitalists? Is mathematics the ideology of capitalists? Is philosophy the ideology of capitalists?
I don’t think what I’m saying is an ideology
There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, “Morning, boys. How’s the water?” And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, “What the hell is water?”
As Alenka Zupancic explains, psychoanalysis’s positing of a reality principle invites us to be suspicious of any reality that presents itself as natural. ‘The reality principle’, Zupancic writes, is not some kind of natural way associated with how things are … The reality principle itself is ideologically mediated; one could even claim that it constitutes the highest form of ideology, the ideology that presents itself as empirical fact (or biological, economic…) necessity (and that we tend to perceive as non-ideological). It is precisely here that we should be most alert to the functioning of ideology.
- Capitalist Realism, chapter 3
oppa gangnam style
