- cross-posted to:
- genzedong@lemmygrad.ml
- cross-posted to:
- genzedong@lemmygrad.ml
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Yeah, ukraine does have a non-zero facist problem. The country does deserve valid criticism.
I just wish Russia supporters would stop using it as justification for the invasion. The denazification propoganda as a false flag for “putin wants to restore the old USSR by invading a sovereign nation” is insanely annoying, and means any valid criticism is drowned out by wondering if it’s far right Russia Today talking points.
Ukraine invaded Russian Donbass in February. https://tass.com/politics/1401297
Tass is russian controlled state media, and it’s not wise to trust direct Ukrainian Government or Russian Government sources during wartime.
Is there a clear source on the ceasefire violations? Like is the OSCC report reliable? Most news spurces seem to be a bunch of “Russia did it first / Ukraine did it first” accusations like the one here:
TASS is referring to an OSCE report, OSCE is the Euro-American organization in charge of monitoring the ceasefire. They have been accused of collaborating with Ukraine and arrested after the war started but their reports before show ceasefire violations by Ukraine.
https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512683
Zelensky has said that he never intended to follow the Minsk ceasefire and said so to Der Spiegel. Other Euorpean leaders like Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande have made it clear they used Minsk just to buy Ukraine time.
I read the report, and it only says instances where ceasefire were violated.
So I looked up why there was border shelling in the donbas region, and found a French article here. Its a bit goofy in trying to make France look good in the situation, but it is a French source, and importantly, it’s neutral towards both parties.
And a source from All Jezeera for context in 2020: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/7/29/ukraine-ceasefire-violated-more-than-100-times-within-days-osce
The timeline for the ceasefire violations seem to look like:
In 2020, Donbass has had an over 20 ceasefire agreements broken. Ukraine and Russian backed rebel groups blame eachother, and its hard to determine who is the overall aggressor.
Ceasefire aggreements between Ukraine and Rebels in the region aren’t worth the toilet paper they are written on since they keep firing at each other and breaking them in 2022.
US says Russia likely to invade due to troop movements near border. Russia denies. Ukraine doesn’t trust Russia after the Crimean annexation.
There is shelling near the border and Ukraine is mad. Russian backed seperatists in the eastern region seem to be to blame for escalation?
Ukraine fires back accross border (“north 122 shells” from the OSCE report in the Donbass region). The TASS article claims this is the starting point of aggression.
The 2000+ ceasefire violation shitshow occurs from both sides in the Donbass region. US continues to think Russia will invade Ukraine.
Russia invades Ukraine. NATO starts sending weapons to Ukraine after a while, etc.
So at second and third glances, it looks like the situation is a lot more “he said she said” than straight up “Ukraine performed a bunch of ceasefire violations Donbass.” and TASS wasn’t exactly representing the full situation. You can’t trust direct Russian or Ukrainian sources because they are at war, and will be extremely biased in favor of their country’s politics.
If you look at the locations of the ceasefire violations from any OSCE report in February, they are almost all in the territory inside the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics (separatist held territory).
Also Ukraine never wanted to negotiate the Minsk agreements and end the conflict. Russia promised to leave Ukraine in April 2022 but Zelensky wanted Donbass and Crimea. Tells you a lot. https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/09/03/west-peace-proposal-ukraine-russia/
Of course Ukraine wanted Russia to leave Ukranian territory? That’s like saying Taiwan wants Taiwanese territory even though China has been complaining on the world stage for 50+ years. Borders have always tragically been enforced through the use of force.
And I don’t think the seperatists were as organized as people think - because almost immediately after the first cease fire, a group of seperatists attacked an airport here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Donetsk_Airport
I’m wondering if instead if maliciousness among all the seperatists, it was disorganization. Even if someone was acting as commander, it only works if someone recognizes that person’s command.
I’m not sure there’s any blameless parties here other than the civilians. Russia used scummy US-esque actions - funding seperatists in a country that isn’t theirs and now doing their own forever war trying to play “global cop”; the seperatists who attacked the airport didn’t honor the original agreement pissing off Ukraine; and Ukraine pulled an Isreal and escalated things way too far in retaliation.
Ukraine should have agreed to the peace and Russia would have left but they wanted more.
The events you are referring to are in 2014 and ceasefire wasn’t minded by both sides in September. As the Minsk I agreement failed, another agreement was signed after this battle.
Donbass was and always will be Russian. Artyom and the people of this region wanted to be part of Soviet Russia but it was given to Ukraine by Lenin to give Soviet Ukraine an industrialized and proletarianized region.
Ukraine’s president in 2014 who was elected by the vast majority of people in Donbass now lives in Russia and wanted Putin to intervene. Russia’s borders are determined by the Russian people with their right to self determination trumping the right to territorial sovereignty of any state.
