How about actually tackling inequality instead of trying to hide it?
Education is, unironically, the best tool to combat inequality, but the effect only kicks in after the students have finished school.
In the meantime, uniforms cut down on bullying. What else do you want them to do? They don’t have a magic wand, nor do they have magic money to hand out to struggling parents.
Edit: unironically some of the dumbest takes I’ve ever read on the internet in this thread.
In the meantime, uniforms cut down on bullying.
Do they? I don’t think so, people are just gonna get bullied with different “reasons”, it’s not really about the clothes after all.
I never saw someone got bullied for their clothes in my environment.
But kids got bullied for wearing glasses, let’s hope they ban those then. Also, better to not let kids with weird accents in school. Wouldn’t want to provoke the bullies.
So you got rid of one reason to bully, so bullies shifted to other stuff. How does this help now? Are there some studies, that prove school uniforms lead to quantitative less bullying? If yes, I would be interested in that.
It’s called sarcasm, babes
Bullying exists, therefore, we should give up and do nothing.😊
Maybe we should seriously address the issues of the individual bullies. Instead of just banning them from school for a week. And teach the teachers how to do that. Maybe we should start creating a public school system that’s able to take care of the kids.
I am sure there are quite a lot of teachers with good ideas, maybe the lawmakers should listen to them. Although mandatory uniforms likely might turn out as being cheaper, especially when the parents have to pay for them equally, whether they’re rich or poor.
Well you sound like you know more than all those other people, why don’t you let them know about your expertise?
uniforms cut down on bullying
[citation needed]
You won’t read it, but here you go anyway
In addition to the ambivalence of wearers’ feelings, there are mixed data on the impact of uniform on bullying.
Doesn’t sound like concrete evidence to me
If someone changed their mind after reading a single study, you could get them to believe anything.
That’s because you’re cherry picking.
“The literature identified indicates that uniforms have no direct impact on academic performance, yet directly impact physical and psychological health.”
That’s because you’re cherry picking.
“The literature identified indicates that uniforms have no direct impact on academic performance, yet directly impact physical and psychological health.”
And yet most people on Lemmy base their beliefs on a single online article
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Mixed data isn’t disproof.
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There is enough magic money to distribute if France (and every other country) would tax the rich.
France already taxes the riches quite a bit.
That’s not even true. Children can differentiate between the cheap and expensive uniforms
Aren’t they provided by the school? Or can you have a super high class tailor make you a uniform? I have no idea about school uniforms.
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Maybe instead of throwing money for uniforms it could be used to hire teachers, repair the building, or buy furnitures? Just a couple of ideas you know…
Do the whole pay for the uniforms? Here in Australia parents do, and it’s ridiculously expensive.
There’s no good option for it : either the parents pay for the uniform and it’s a tax fir the poors, or the government pay for it and the money would be far better spent on teachers and stuff.
What about no uniforms and no one pays for price gouged, single source clothes?
Ridiculously expensive? I’m in Australia too, how much do you think they cost?
Primary is affordable cause you just go into bigw
Secondary, the blazer alone is like $400 and there’s only one store where you can get it. Eventually he’ll lose it and we’ll have a big discussion about money.
There is no state school that requires a $400 blazer
Mate, welcome to port Melbourne college. I may be off with the exact number on the blazer but a basic set of uniform with 3 shirts, pants an single blazer was close to 1k . Nitpick as much as you want but I have the receipts and they are hurtful.
Add to that a laptop, because port Melbourne primary used iPad but nooo, not enough for college.
You’re missing the point. None of those things would help poor kids not appear poor and get bullied.
Uniform doesn’t help for this either.
makes the poor kids look the same
In what way? Poor children wouldn’t afford the same attire as rich people, no matter with or without uniform. You can still have more expensive and therefore bully those that don’t have the expensive ones. You can still bully a kid for having a cheap Android phone and not the latest Big McChicken Pro Max™ iPhone; you get the gist.
Uniforms just hide the issues of classism and never deal with them directly or even attempt to solve them at all.
i know? thats why i said it makes them Look the same. in my country we only have one set of uniform, not multiple.
Pretty sure they do those things already. No mention of those things being lacking in the article.
Amazing that some random guy on the internet thinks he knows better than an accredited and experienced headmaster.
You must not be aware of the situation in France…
What else do you want them to do?
How about working with troubled kids to address the underlying issues?
You think schools don’t have councillors? What do you think these “underlying issues” that contribute to inequality are?
You think schools don’t have councillors?
Oh some do, but it’s certainly something which could use a lot more funds. That would definitely be much better at tackling bullying than school uniforms.
What do you think these “underlying issues” that contribute to inequality are?
I was talking about the “underlying issues” of bullies.
I’ve noticed that people on Lemmy aren’t happy with incremental change for the better. It always has to be a magic solution that solves everything. It’s pretty silly but also understandable considering the demographics of Lemmy.
Nah they like fancy clothes better, they know it will work. In the meantime, they will also cut 8000 jobs from education too.
Apart from all the other points made here, I always wonder why uniforms have to look like there has been no development in clothing/fashion for the last 100+ years? Why do they have to look like they are extras on a Harry Potter filmset?
Some schools have uniforms that are just khakis and a polo, but yeah I dunno why a lot of places think blazers and ties are a good idea. I had to wear those in HS and never got used to it-- still hate ties to this day
If the uniforms are provided, with needed accessories to be worn correctly, then sure.
If it’s just an “affordable” vendor, then meh.
Fines only work on the poor, and a not-free but mandatory uniform simply acts like a fine for being poor.
Bases on the news, a basic kit is provided. What worries me is the only 2 polo shirts part. (but a blazer jacket because they have their priorities right). I can’t see how family will keep them clean without buying extra ones. Not a problem for kids from middle class and above family who have access to a dryer and an afford a couple of “same colour polo shirt” which "should do the trick as part of an uniform assuming the principal isn’t a asshole). But if you’re from a poor family, where clothes need 3 days to dry on a rack. They’ll be the stinky dirty kid
In most climates, clothes will dry in 1 day. Still – 3 is the absolute minimum: 1 to wear, 1 to wash, 1 to dry.
Oh look, the far right pretending they care about children again… Let’s see… I’m gonna bet on some minister has some shares in a clothes factory somewhere
Not just provided, but also provided in sufficient amounts. And ideally with a comprehensive replacement policy. If you give just one then there will be problems when it needs cleaning or if it gets damaged.
I was on board until I heard it was the far right, those guys and uniforms have a bad history.
Allow us to tackle inequality by forcing poor families to buy expensive uniforms from our selected supplier.
Please ignore all our financial links with said supplier.
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Uniforms do equalise kids. As a former teacher, I’m pro uniform.
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I mean… that’s not a right. Are you very young perhaps? It can seem difficult as a kid to deal with but as an adult it’s easier to see the benefits. There’s a lot of studies on the improvements made by lessening the differences between the kids.
I’m several years out of the education system and fuck that noise. I’d be interested to see your studies, as a kid I faced mild bullying and always wore cheap clothes but there was never a causal link.
To me this uniform craze is 20 % well-intentioned-but-mostly-useless and 80 % old reactionaries trying to gain a sense of control over the youth (and society in general) which is just another symptom of the societal illness that is bringing back fascism (not that uniforms are inherently fascist… but fascists LOVE uniforms).
Can you link these studies? I would be interested.
https://www.trutexbtru2u.co.uk/research-shows-wearing-school-uniform-helps-reduce-bullying/
This is a recent British study focussing on bullying. Teachers, parents and children themselves see the differences.
https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ1255002
This is an American study that focusses on the students and parents and reaches similar conclusions.
Both studies focus on the perception of the issue, not on hard numbers on bullying. What I was looking for are, if cases of bullying drop when school uniforms are introduced.
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There are definitely school uniforms in Germany.
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Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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Fuck that shit.
Kids are smarter than we give them credit for. Kids know.
Especially today or are they going to provide uniform phones, social media pictures,… too?
I hated wearing uniforms in school, but as an adult idk it wasn’t that bad so long as they’re unisex and modern. I still hate wearing business casual but I did never get picked on for dressing poorly
Getting picked on for dressing poorly is definitely what school uniform is trying to tackle.
Which shows that they really don’t understand bullying and are looking for an easy way out. Bullies will now just pick another “excuse” to harass other kids. If you want to have less bullying you have to tackle why bullies do so in the first place. And that’s personal problems of the bullies them self and not external factors.
Except it is about financial pressure ok kids and their parents. You don’t have to buy a new jersey or worry your fake will be noticed. You can’t wear it. Whatever they pick on next doesn’t mean they shouldn’t resolve this situation.
Drink driving kills people, so does speeding. Addressing one is not a sign of not understanding the other.
It is a response to rising inequality. The inequality still needs to be addressed.
But the inequality isn’t addressed! Parent’s now have to shell out additional money to buy school uniforms and you can bet that kids who spend their free time around other kids still want to have what ever shoe, pants or jersey is in right now. They sure as hell don’t spend their free time in their school uniform! So this does absolutely nothing to address this issue.
And frankly, handling peer pressure is a topic that every parent should properly teach their kids. The solution to this for damn sure isn’t to buy your kid what ever fashion trend is in right this week!
There are ways to pick on kids for being poor even in school uniform. Trousers too short cause the kid grew and parents couldnt afford new trousers? Picked on. Not wearing the latest brand name shoes with your uniform? Picked on. White shirts starting to look a little grubby cause its just been washed too often? Picked on. Backpack not the latest in kids fashion world? Picked on.
We were little shits at school and could always find a way to bully the poor kid even with school uniforms.
School uniforms are an extra financial burden on those who are already poor and more often than not have to be purchased through a specific supplier. If your tie was off brand from the supplier and slightly cheaper it might be the wrong shade instead. I saw teachers send poor kids home for having the wrong shade of blue on their jumper or tie cause their parents tried to buy a cheaper option.
I just do not see this as a solution and it also gives members of staff a way to bully poor kids too.
Thanks for mentioning the teacher-point. In many cases it’s really a teacher who starts or legitimizes the bullying by treating a child badly.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
But uniforms have made a return to one town as part of a government pilot scheme to establish if they can reduce inequality – and improve behaviour.
In the Brittany village of Plouisy, the mayor from Emmanuel Macron’s Renaissance party signed up for the experiment but pulled out after complaints from angry parents.
Uniforms were first introduced in secondary schools in France by Napoleon Bonaparte in 1802, who wanted to instil more military-style discipline in the education system, and were modelled on army outfits.
They have not been compulsory in state schools in mainland France since 1968, seen as a watershed moment in French society because of the civil unrest that dominated the spring.
In 2016 the rightwing presidential candidate François Fillon and the far-right leader Marine Le Pen included the imposition of school uniforms in their election manifesto.
Parents are divided about the utility of introducing uniforms: some have suggested it will lead to more apparent equality while others have pointed out that inequalities can be still expressed in such items as shoes, scarves, mobile phones and backpacks.
The original article contains 636 words, the summary contains 179 words. Saved 72%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
This is just dump as people will flex woth different things: Smartphones, Watches, Jewlery, the Car their Parrents pick them up in, their School Bag Brand …
I’ve seen uniforms work only as a way for teachers to feel that they are in control. Take off that uniform jacket - the teachers are furious and try to find something to punish you for, because they’d want to imagine that every kid is respectful, obedient and afraid of their every word, and without that jacket you look more human.
Strongly against, despite this being anecdotal.
So basically theyre doing the “europeans arent racist” thing. A few steps more and you can justify imperalism and then ethnic cleansing. Of course this is an exaggeration but you get the point.
…a lot of countries have school uniforms, but sure see it that way.
Most countries do it to create discipline(still think its a flawed method). Using it as a tool to create equality is strange because it makes people equal by making them the same. If you erase everyone whos not like you technically that creates equality.
From school uniform to ethnic cleansing, that is one helluva connection.
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The Nazi also did ate bread and potato.
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I hate to burst your bubble, but…
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