As this #RedditBlackout accelerates the Fediverse experiment, I feel the urge… the need… to chime in with my 2-cents.

My summary of the current lay of the land: Beehaw saw a wave of pornography spam and decided to shut Lemmy.world off and Defederate from this server. I’m too new to this community to fully understand the wants/needs of each individual server, but I’ve been around the internet long enough to recognize that porn-spam is an age-old trolling technique and will occur again in the future. Especially as small, boutique, hobbyist servers pop up and online drama/rivalries increase, online harassment campaigns (like coordinated porn spam attacks) are simply an inevitability.

Lemmy.world wants open registrations. Beehaw does not: Beehaw wants users to be verified before posting. This is normal: many old /r/subreddits would simply shadowban all 1-year old accounts and earlier… giving the illusion that everything is well for 5+ or 10+ year old accounts, but cut out on the vast majority of spam accounts with short lives. This works for Reddit where you have a huge number of long-lived accounts, but its still not a perfect technique: you can pay poor people in 3rd world countries to create accounts, post on them for a year, and the these now verified accounts can be paid for by spammers to invade various subreddits.

I digress. My main point is that many subreddits, and now Lemmy-instances/communities, want a “trusted user”. Akin to the 1±year-old account on Reddit. Its not a perfect solution by any means, but accounts that have some “weight” to them, that have passed even a crude time-based selection process, are far easier to manage for small moderation teams.

We don’t have the benefit of time however, so how do we quickly build trust on the Fediverse? It seems impossible to solve this problem on lemmy.world and Beehaw.org alone. At least, not with our current toolset.

A 3rd Server appears: ImNotAnAsshole.net

But lets add the 3rd server, which I’ll hypothetically name “ImNotAnAsshole.net”, or INAA.net for short.

INAA.net would be an instance that focuses on building a userbase that follows a large set of different instances recruiting needs. This has the following benefits.

  1. Decentralization – Beehaw.org is famously only run by 4 administrators on their spare time. They cannot verify hundreds of thousands of new users who appear due to #RedditBlackout. INAA.net would allow another team to focus on the verification problem.

  2. Access to both lemmy.world and Beehaw.org with one login – As long as INAA.net remains in the good graces of other servers (aka: assuming their user filtering model works), any user who registers on INAA.net will be able to access both lemmy.world and Beehaw.org with one login.

  3. Custom Moderation tools – INAA.net could add additional features independently of the core github.com/LemmyNet programming team and experiment. It is their own instance afterall.

Because of #2, users would be encouraged to join INAA.net, especially if they want access to Beehaw.org. Lemmy.world can remain how it is, low-moderation / less curated users and communities (which is a more appropriate staging grounds for #RedditBlackout refugees). Beehaw.org works with the INAA.net team on the proper rules for INAA.net to federate with Beehaw.org and everyone’s happy.

Or is it? I am new to the Fediverse and have missed out on Mastodon.social drama. Hopefully older members of this community can chime in with where my logic has gone awry.

  • SensEnglish
    3·
    2 years ago

    Being honest, I don’t like the idea of giving personal info including my face to an unknown 3rd party which are not really bounded by any laws or regulations since they have no audit trial and not a registered corporation.

    Building a time-based karma tracking system seems much better to me and could be automated.

    1. user puts in their account name and which instance they are on
    2. the automated bot checks scrapes all their comments and posts , then calculates a sum of total karma. On the backend we code in a threshold of karma that needs to be attained before they become a verified user.
    3. the bot also checks how long the account has been live for, as an example let’s say we code in a threshold of 2 weeks
    4. bot adds user to the whitelisted user database

    It’s these rules that should be defined by a central authority which has buy in from the Lemmyverse as a whole.

    In other comments I made, I mentioned I like the fact that karma doesn’t exist here. But iv changed my mind, I can now see its uses. To be honest a system like this would give us the best of both worlds. Would still have an effect on stopping karma wh-or-ing but also allow that extra layer of security.

    • drphungky@lemmy.worldEnglish
      2·
      2 years ago

      I totally agree, and I’m not sure I would do it either if I weren’t proposing it, but I think late-stage Reddit showed us that time-based accounts don’t really work. Bots, sold accounts, state-based agitprop and astroturfed corporate ads were rampant, especially compared to a decade ago.

      All of that is fine for the servers that want that, but some kind of “guaranteed” userbase at least lets other communities limit themselves if they want to. I wouldn’t suggest Lemmy as a whole use it, but it certainly seems like it could be a good addition.

      • SensEnglish
        2·
        2 years ago

        I’ll try to knock something up in python over next couple weeks and will start a GitHub project to share with you. We would also need to think about database costs, I can’t see it being a massive database though since it’s just a list of usernames.

        We would then need to add in a module to the Lemmy project, (which I can’t do as I don’t know rush) so admins have the ability to use our whitelists.

        • drphungky@lemmy.worldEnglish
          1·
          2 years ago

          My Python (and all programming for that matter) is pretty basic, but I am at least on Github and can look at it.

          I’m still not sold on time-based though and would push for some other kind of stricter verification. If every community starts banning any big community but a list of people “guaranteed to not be assholes” is always allowed, that would make a lot of people sign up to be based in that community - even if the signup is onerous or invasive. But the nice thing is it doesn’t require anyone to do so - it just becomes a good first choice if as a user you want to be guaranteed to not be banned from some section of the fediverse. And for the other communities, it becomes a really easy list to allow even if they ban everyone who didn’t create an account on their server. It’s all about incentives.

          • SensEnglish
            1·
            2 years ago

            Sorry, just so I’m clear, I’m proposing karma and time based rules together in one. So they have to pass both before becoming verified. It’s a start anyway, I’m getting to work right now to see what can be done

            • drphungky@lemmy.worldEnglish
              1·
              2 years ago

              Sorry, not trying to be a debbie downer, just trying to think things through: What stops bot armies from upvoting new accounts and giving false karma? I’m trying to think of scalability.

              • SensEnglish
                2·
                2 years ago

                It doesn’t, but reddit has that issue too. It’s a balancing act overall between anonymity and safety.

                That said, because we are so early in Lemmys life, the thresholds would have to be set low otherwise no one would pass, and that does present an issue yes.

                Maybe someone else will come along and help suggest something more here.