Note how the graph is flattening. If this were a genocide, as the “perpetrators” gain control of more territory and eliminate enemy combatants you’d expect the casualties to increase (since there’s no one there to protect people) not flatten out as we’re seeing. Also note the Palestinian casualties being reported includes combatants (valid targets in a war) a support personnel (also valid targets in a war).
Also the UN has indicated there it’s likely some casualties have been counted multiple times. It’s a war after all, so we can’t expect these numbers to be 100% accurate.
The numbers are consistent with similar urban combat operations elsewhere. Sadly, in these kinds of conflicts, civilians often bear the brunt, especially in conflicts where there’s combatants that don’t wear uniforms. Also, Israel was not prepared to handle humanitarian issues in a drawn out campaign like this because Israel generally doesn’t do these kinds of campaigns. Hamas did know this war was going to occur well in advance but didn’t prepare for helping their civilian population. One suspects that may be because Hamas benefits from the suffering of the Palestinian people.
Sorry for the interruption. Now back to your regularly scheduled TikTok propaganda.
Genocide isn’t just murder. The UN defined it in the late 40s and it encompasses a lot more. “They aren’t murdering enough so keep on going with your propaganda” is a real 0 iq or worse bad faith take.
Statistics, especially statistics by those in power, are often not accurate. How can people know that this is accurate data and how would it even be possible to get accurate data in a situation like this? I also looked at the numbers again, and although the worst curves are flattening, there’s also a lot of really awful facts in that PDF. Is this the least cruel way Israel could fight Hamas or is unnecessary cruelty being implemented? Another poster said they may be using phosphorous. Is that true?
That’s not actually true. I didn’t admit a lack of reliable evidence of genocide but just questioned how data collected in a war zone has such precise numbers when there are probably epistemological problems with determining numbers. I’m incredibly politically and historically ignorant on this conflict and would not, at my current level of knowledge, make a blanket conclusion about whether genocide can be concluded or not concluded based on reliable evidence.
This graph looks more like what I would expect from war rather than what I would expect from genocide. But many people are calling this genocide, so it seems likely this is a more complex issue. Why are people saying this is more like genocide?
Edited: I am leaving the comment here, but it appears I am actually ignorant on the definition of genocide. It doesn’t relate to a set amount of deaths and other conflicts with fewer deaths have been labeled as genocide, so my point was totally wrong.
I wouldn’t expect one side to have complete control of the food, water, medical supplies, electricity, and aid of the other side in a war. Nor would I expect more than a million people experiencing catastrophic food insecurity (famine) or disproportionate casualties of 34:1 in a war. Nor the systematic destruction of public infrastructure or attacks on refugee camps and humanitarian aid.
The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2 defines it as: any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
Hundreds of Genocide Scholars have described this ethnic cleansing campaign as genocide because of the deliberate targeting of children/civilians and expressed intent by Israeli officials.
So, when we look at the actions taken, the dropping of thousands and thousands of bombs in a couple of days, including phosphorus bombs, as we heard, on one of the most densely populated areas around the world, together with these proclamations of intent, this indeed constitutes genocidal killing, which is the first act, according to the convention, of genocide. And Israel, I must say, is also perpetrating act number two and three — that is, causing serious bodily or mental harm, and creating condition designed to bring about the destruction of the group by cutting off water, food, supply of energy, bombing hospitals, ordering the fast evictions of hospitals, which the World Health Organization has declared to be, quote, “a death sentence.” So, we’re seeing the combination of genocidal acts with special intent. This is indeed a textbook case of genocide.
i mentioned thank you before, but i want to mention again your response is a very well-written response and i hope it gets up-voted. I don’t really understand what those people saying the actions are justified would say in response to this, but i read it again and there’s a lot of convincing stuff in here. I’m still not sure about how Israel should be handling this instead if these actions are unethical, or if Israel is dealing with Hamas who wants to destroy it and is doing the best they can while facing an existential threat. Would there be a way of fighting Hamas that is less likely to impact civilians? Is there an alternative that they are not choosing?
First I want to say I appreciate that you are inquisitive and interested in learning more about the conflict. I’m not sure I’ll have time to answer all of your questions so I wanted to provide some of the best resources I’ve come across.
Articles will always have bias and can omit details, which is why I consider the most comprehensive sources to be works by New Historians and Investigative reports by human rights organizations. Their work is done on-the-ground and independently of each other, so cross referencing their works will give you the best picture IMO.
For an end to the conflict, I believe only a Secular Binational One-State Solution is the only real way forward because of the current reality of the occupied territories. I’ve linked a couple articles that show why some New Historians think that way.
If you don’t have access to a library or want to view these for free first, they can all be found on the Library Genesis. I believe a few are on audible too
thank you for responding. do you know what their justification is for all of this? or do they not make a justification? again, i am probably biased because I am part Jewish ethnically and want to believe Jewish people aren’t being arbitrarily cruel and that they feel there is no other option, but I don’t know, it’s something I want to believe and it may be wrong
so it sounds like you are saying that not only are people dying, but because a lot of infrastructure is being destroyed and because no one knows how they are going to get food or water, not only is it terrifying, but also will lead to a destruction to a portion of the people.
Someone posted a PDF in this thread showing the amount of people dying over time is flattening, that it looks more like a log graph than an exponential graph. This is based on people dying, so it’s evil in a way to look at the math of this, but if the infrastructure situation is getting worse and this is systematic, why is this curve flattening, or are the numbers that were posted just wrong?
How certain are reporters and unbiased people that phosphorous was used and what is the significance of that?
I know you are showing different articles about how this is genocide. Sometimes, like in global warming, you’ll see someone go “on the one hand, some scientists say the earth isn’t experiencing global warming, but some say it is” but there’s 10,000 scientists who say global warming is real and 2 who say it isn’t.
Do most experts in genocide or war crimes think something really awful is going on? I don’t think the ICJ is biased, so the answer is probably that if the ICJ is saying there’s a problem, there is, but upon reading about that it seems like ICJ complaint is only backed by certain countries, most of them Muslim. I have a hard time trusting the opinions of any Muslim countries because of how they treat LGBT people. Is this something on which pretty much all international human rights activists agree mostly that they are being treated in a way that amounts to genocide?
I get lots of information, but it seems like there’s a moral equivalency in the media between the two sides, and I don’t really get any perspective on what many humanitarians think. I wish there were 100 humanitarians activists chosen at random who could give opinions on this, because I’m still somewhat unsure of what to believe.
I think a lot of those people that are being hurt are probably not even political and just don’t want to die or have their kids die. It seems unfair.
Someone posted here a graph showing a flattening curve of deaths, meaning fewer and fewer people are dying over time, suggesting that claims that lots of people are about to die of starvation and dehydration may not be true possibly. (Unless of course, those people are on the verge of death and so it’s not reflected in the graph yet.)
I am probably able to be so neutral because I didn’t see all the TikTok videos that were out there. I am not a TikTok watcher, but apparently the videos were awful and there were a lot of them and it shows people the stuff the media isn’t showing.
I read the Democracy Now article. They are a good publication. I don’t understand how Israel could fight Hamas without it affecting civilians since Hamas is among civilian populations.
Perhaps it is better for me to realize I am too biased to have an opinion on this that is both educated and objective. The phosphorous thing bothered me. Is that a chemical weapon? Is there accurate information that they are using chemical weapons? I feel like that would change my view and make me see what they are doing as clearly evil and corrupt.
It’s because the term genocide has been weaponized. People are redefining the term to be “whatever Israel is doing” to create a false equivalency between what Hamas did on October 7 and the war those actions started. It’s a “both sides” mentality from people that confuse sympathy for Palestinians with sympathy for Hamas.
It’s very disgusting logic when you think about it. People feel that if they can prove that both sides have committed genocide, then the genocide perpetrated by Hamas is somehow justified.
There’s a lot of raw emotion at play here people that have been subjected to imagery of dead children tend not to be able to parse the logic they’re promoting.
But in the end Hamas committed genocide, Israel has not. That fact makes it difficult for people to attend protests where people cosplay as Hamas, so it’s generally rejected to preserve the convenient narrative and not feel guilty over not having the courage to call out blatant antisemitism.
I think it’s hyperbolic to say all the protestors are antisemitic. I’m sure some are, but perhaps some people just don’t want civilians starving to death. This does not imply that Hamas and Jewish people are both to blame in the same amount. I don’t know all the details of the complex history. The idea that all the people protesting are all secretly just racist and that’s the reason why they are protesting is a gross simplification.
Very few outlets will show a graph of the casualties in Gaza nowadays.
But if you’re interested in this beyond the propaganda angle here’s a link to the casualties from the UN: https://unric.org/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2024/04/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_19_April_2024_1.pdf
Note how the graph is flattening. If this were a genocide, as the “perpetrators” gain control of more territory and eliminate enemy combatants you’d expect the casualties to increase (since there’s no one there to protect people) not flatten out as we’re seeing. Also note the Palestinian casualties being reported includes combatants (valid targets in a war) a support personnel (also valid targets in a war).
Also the UN has indicated there it’s likely some casualties have been counted multiple times. It’s a war after all, so we can’t expect these numbers to be 100% accurate.
The numbers are consistent with similar urban combat operations elsewhere. Sadly, in these kinds of conflicts, civilians often bear the brunt, especially in conflicts where there’s combatants that don’t wear uniforms. Also, Israel was not prepared to handle humanitarian issues in a drawn out campaign like this because Israel generally doesn’t do these kinds of campaigns. Hamas did know this war was going to occur well in advance but didn’t prepare for helping their civilian population. One suspects that may be because Hamas benefits from the suffering of the Palestinian people.
Sorry for the interruption. Now back to your regularly scheduled TikTok propaganda.
Genocide isn’t just murder. The UN defined it in the late 40s and it encompasses a lot more. “They aren’t murdering enough so keep on going with your propaganda” is a real 0 iq or worse bad faith take.
Statistics, especially statistics by those in power, are often not accurate. How can people know that this is accurate data and how would it even be possible to get accurate data in a situation like this? I also looked at the numbers again, and although the worst curves are flattening, there’s also a lot of really awful facts in that PDF. Is this the least cruel way Israel could fight Hamas or is unnecessary cruelty being implemented? Another poster said they may be using phosphorous. Is that true?
That plays both ways. If the data isn’t reliable why are people able to accuse Israel of genocide?
You admit lack of reliable evidence. It’s very disturbing that accusations of genocide are being levied when there is a lack of evidence.
That’s not actually true. I didn’t admit a lack of reliable evidence of genocide but just questioned how data collected in a war zone has such precise numbers when there are probably epistemological problems with determining numbers. I’m incredibly politically and historically ignorant on this conflict and would not, at my current level of knowledge, make a blanket conclusion about whether genocide can be concluded or not concluded based on reliable evidence.
Ew. 6 paragraphs of genocide apologia.
This graph looks more like what I would expect from war rather than what I would expect from genocide. But many people are calling this genocide, so it seems likely this is a more complex issue. Why are people saying this is more like genocide?
Edited: I am leaving the comment here, but it appears I am actually ignorant on the definition of genocide. It doesn’t relate to a set amount of deaths and other conflicts with fewer deaths have been labeled as genocide, so my point was totally wrong.
I wouldn’t expect one side to have complete control of the food, water, medical supplies, electricity, and aid of the other side in a war. Nor would I expect more than a million people experiencing catastrophic food insecurity (famine) or disproportionate casualties of 34:1 in a war. Nor the systematic destruction of public infrastructure or attacks on refugee camps and humanitarian aid.
The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2 defines it as: any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Hundreds of Genocide Scholars have described this ethnic cleansing campaign as genocide because of the deliberate targeting of children/civilians and expressed intent by Israeli officials.
“A Textbook Case of Genocide”: Israeli Holocaust Scholar Raz Segal Decries Israel’s Assault on Gaza
Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (South Africa v. Israel) and Summery by the International Court of Justice
ICJ Order 28 March 2024
Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated
AP News, Time, Reuters, Vox, CBC
i mentioned thank you before, but i want to mention again your response is a very well-written response and i hope it gets up-voted. I don’t really understand what those people saying the actions are justified would say in response to this, but i read it again and there’s a lot of convincing stuff in here. I’m still not sure about how Israel should be handling this instead if these actions are unethical, or if Israel is dealing with Hamas who wants to destroy it and is doing the best they can while facing an existential threat. Would there be a way of fighting Hamas that is less likely to impact civilians? Is there an alternative that they are not choosing?
First I want to say I appreciate that you are inquisitive and interested in learning more about the conflict. I’m not sure I’ll have time to answer all of your questions so I wanted to provide some of the best resources I’ve come across.
Articles will always have bias and can omit details, which is why I consider the most comprehensive sources to be works by New Historians and Investigative reports by human rights organizations. Their work is done on-the-ground and independently of each other, so cross referencing their works will give you the best picture IMO.
For an end to the conflict, I believe only a Secular Binational One-State Solution is the only real way forward because of the current reality of the occupied territories. I’ve linked a couple articles that show why some New Historians think that way.
List of Human Rights Organizations / Reports:
Amnesty International Report
Human Rights Watch Report
B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer
HRW Events of 2022
HRW Events of 2023
List of Books by New Historians:
If you don’t have access to a library or want to view these for free first, they can all be found on the Library Genesis. I believe a few are on audible too
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
New Historian Aricles on One vs. Two State Solution:
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
thank you for responding. do you know what their justification is for all of this? or do they not make a justification? again, i am probably biased because I am part Jewish ethnically and want to believe Jewish people aren’t being arbitrarily cruel and that they feel there is no other option, but I don’t know, it’s something I want to believe and it may be wrong
so it sounds like you are saying that not only are people dying, but because a lot of infrastructure is being destroyed and because no one knows how they are going to get food or water, not only is it terrifying, but also will lead to a destruction to a portion of the people.
Someone posted a PDF in this thread showing the amount of people dying over time is flattening, that it looks more like a log graph than an exponential graph. This is based on people dying, so it’s evil in a way to look at the math of this, but if the infrastructure situation is getting worse and this is systematic, why is this curve flattening, or are the numbers that were posted just wrong?
How certain are reporters and unbiased people that phosphorous was used and what is the significance of that?
I know you are showing different articles about how this is genocide. Sometimes, like in global warming, you’ll see someone go “on the one hand, some scientists say the earth isn’t experiencing global warming, but some say it is” but there’s 10,000 scientists who say global warming is real and 2 who say it isn’t.
Do most experts in genocide or war crimes think something really awful is going on? I don’t think the ICJ is biased, so the answer is probably that if the ICJ is saying there’s a problem, there is, but upon reading about that it seems like ICJ complaint is only backed by certain countries, most of them Muslim. I have a hard time trusting the opinions of any Muslim countries because of how they treat LGBT people. Is this something on which pretty much all international human rights activists agree mostly that they are being treated in a way that amounts to genocide?
I get lots of information, but it seems like there’s a moral equivalency in the media between the two sides, and I don’t really get any perspective on what many humanitarians think. I wish there were 100 humanitarians activists chosen at random who could give opinions on this, because I’m still somewhat unsure of what to believe.
I think a lot of those people that are being hurt are probably not even political and just don’t want to die or have their kids die. It seems unfair.
Someone posted here a graph showing a flattening curve of deaths, meaning fewer and fewer people are dying over time, suggesting that claims that lots of people are about to die of starvation and dehydration may not be true possibly. (Unless of course, those people are on the verge of death and so it’s not reflected in the graph yet.)
I am probably able to be so neutral because I didn’t see all the TikTok videos that were out there. I am not a TikTok watcher, but apparently the videos were awful and there were a lot of them and it shows people the stuff the media isn’t showing.
I read the Democracy Now article. They are a good publication. I don’t understand how Israel could fight Hamas without it affecting civilians since Hamas is among civilian populations.
Perhaps it is better for me to realize I am too biased to have an opinion on this that is both educated and objective. The phosphorous thing bothered me. Is that a chemical weapon? Is there accurate information that they are using chemical weapons? I feel like that would change my view and make me see what they are doing as clearly evil and corrupt.
It’s because the term genocide has been weaponized. People are redefining the term to be “whatever Israel is doing” to create a false equivalency between what Hamas did on October 7 and the war those actions started. It’s a “both sides” mentality from people that confuse sympathy for Palestinians with sympathy for Hamas.
It’s very disgusting logic when you think about it. People feel that if they can prove that both sides have committed genocide, then the genocide perpetrated by Hamas is somehow justified.
There’s a lot of raw emotion at play here people that have been subjected to imagery of dead children tend not to be able to parse the logic they’re promoting.
But in the end Hamas committed genocide, Israel has not. That fact makes it difficult for people to attend protests where people cosplay as Hamas, so it’s generally rejected to preserve the convenient narrative and not feel guilty over not having the courage to call out blatant antisemitism.
I think it’s hyperbolic to say all the protestors are antisemitic. I’m sure some are, but perhaps some people just don’t want civilians starving to death. This does not imply that Hamas and Jewish people are both to blame in the same amount. I don’t know all the details of the complex history. The idea that all the people protesting are all secretly just racist and that’s the reason why they are protesting is a gross simplification.
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