Finally, nowhere have I supported Russia in anything here
Your reactions to other people and your blaming of western nations very clearly puts you in the position of supporting Russia. You’ve not once admitted that Russia is to blame for the countless deaths. that it has caused in its aggression. Instead you keep trying to twist it on everyone else for having the absolute-fucking-audacity of defending themselves. I mean, how dare they fight for their nations survival and independence!
The fact that you see this in black and white terms of either supporting the west using Ukraine as a proxy in a war with Russia or supporting Russian invasion shows that you have infantile understanding of the world.
This is probably one of the very few conflicts in recent times where this war is black and white. There’s a very clear aggressor. This entire war is utterly pointless. It’s not difficult to see how Russia is the aggressor here.
If still you think that Ukraine can win this war then you need to start engaging with reality. Your whole rant is premised on a nonsensical assumption that Ukraine can win.
Why are you so confident that Russia can win? They should have won this war within 24 hours of the invasion. Instead the 3 day operation has been going on a little while longer. The only reason why they’re still in this fight is because of the huge stockpiles they amassed over the past 70 years.
Russia isn’t going to leave, and nothing the west has done got Ukraine closer to winning the war. What the west has achieved was to drag this war out and ensure that countless people died in the process.
They will, eventually. Maybe it’ll take a year, maybe it’ll take 10. I’ll iterate the point I made in my previous reply: should Russia have rolled over and immediately surrendered to Nazi Germany to prevent deaths? Should North Vietnam have conceded to the US because the US wasn’t going to leave? Look how long that war lasted. Ukraine has an absolute right to fight to push out the Russian aggressors and not concede any land.
supporting the west using Ukraine as a proxy in a war with Russia
All of Russia’s doing. All the west is doing is giving Ukraine the tools and info to defend itself.
Your reactions to other people and your blaming of western nations very clearly puts you in the position of supporting Russia.
No, that puts me in a position of having actual understanding of the situation and reality of the war instead of regurgitating western propaganda the way you’re doing.
Instead you keep trying to twist it on everyone else for having the absolute-fucking-audacity of defending themselves. I mean, how dare they fight for their nations survival and independence!
This is probably one of the very few conflicts in recent times where this war is black and white. There’s a very clear aggressor. This entire war is utterly pointless. It’s not difficult to see how Russia is the aggressor here.
It’s not, and only an ignoramus or a propagandist would claim that. Your whole narrative based on the fallacy of homogenizing Ukraine. Let’s take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here’s how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
Ukraine is clearly not some homogeneous blob, but a large country with complex cultural and ethnic situations.
Furthermore, the idea that NATO threatens Russia doesn’t come from Russia. Plenty of western experts have been saying this for many decades. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. Here’s what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"
Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
And of course, RAND published a whole study titled extending Russia where it proposes to use Ukraine as a western proxy the way is being done now. You’re either a shill or a useful idiot for the empire, either way not a good look.
The ethnic makeup of Ukraine and it’s election results is absolutely none of Russia’s business and it’s gives it no excuse to attack Ukraine. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, what happens internally is of no consequence of Russia. In the end, Ukraine ousted Yanukovych after it turned out he was in Putin’s pocket and fucked off to Russia. The people decided they didn’t want to align with Russia and Putin realised he was losing influence of the country he thinks should be under Russian control.
You still haven’t replied to my point about whether Russia or other nations should have surrendered when they were attacked by axis powers. They fought back against aggressive tyrants and kept their land at huge costs. Ukraine are very much in the right to do the same.
Of course that’s bad. There’s a good reason why cluster munitions are banned and I’m against the US supplying them to Ukraine. In retrospect though this is virtually a none issue (it was used against Russian invaders and not civilians) given the terrorist attacks Russia launched against the civilian population, bombing hospitals, targeting apartment blocks, stealing Ukrainian children, raping and murdering their way through the country. I’m sure someone as intelligent and with a balanced view will be constantly denouncing the atrocities that they’ve caused and calling out Russia for its war crimes, and calling for them to stop the attacks.
The NATO crap isn’t even worth discussing and is just a flimsy excuse from Russia to try and justify the “special military operation”. Ukraine isn’t even in NATO but Russia has done a damn good job of promoting the organisation. Former Soviet countries have joined or want to join precisely because of the behaviour exhibited by Russia. It’s their sovereign right as independent country to decide if they join, it’s none of Russia’s business.
After the western sponsored coup in 2014 the eastern regions of Ukraine wanted to separate and Ukraine has been in a civil war since then. What Russia did is actually directly modelled on what NATO did in Yugoslavia where they recognized the independence of the breakaway regions and then had them invite NATO for help. That’s literally the precedent that you NATO chuds set.
You still haven’t replied to my point about whether Russia or other nations should have surrendered when they were attacked by axis powers.
The point where you’re trying to compare people of eastern Ukraine fighting for independence from the coup regime that was shelling them with cluster munitions to nazis? If you don’t understand why that’s an idiotic comparison, then what else is there to say to you.
Of course that’s bad.
Oh, it’s bad, but the people the coup regime was shelling apparently don’t get a right of self determination according to you.
The NATO crap isn’t even worth discussing and is just a flimsy excuse from Russia to try and justify the “special military operation”.
Actual geopolitical experts disagree, but I guess you think you know better because you’ve demonstrated such deep understanding of the subject in this thread. Fun fact is that Russia wanted to join NATO in the 90s and NATO told Russia to fuck off after which point NATO went on to invade a bunch of countries such as Yugoslavia, Libya, and Syria and continued to surround Russia militarily.
You’re an ignoramus and you should be deeply ashamed of yourself.
Your reactions to other people and your blaming of western nations very clearly puts you in the position of supporting Russia. You’ve not once admitted that Russia is to blame for the countless deaths. that it has caused in its aggression. Instead you keep trying to twist it on everyone else for having the absolute-fucking-audacity of defending themselves. I mean, how dare they fight for their nations survival and independence!
This is probably one of the very few conflicts in recent times where this war is black and white. There’s a very clear aggressor. This entire war is utterly pointless. It’s not difficult to see how Russia is the aggressor here.
No, that puts me in a position of having actual understanding of the situation and reality of the war instead of regurgitating western propaganda the way you’re doing.
Where were you when these people were trying to defend themselves as reported by CNN, and where were you when this was happening?
It’s not, and only an ignoramus or a propagandist would claim that. Your whole narrative based on the fallacy of homogenizing Ukraine. Let’s take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here’s how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
Ukraine is clearly not some homogeneous blob, but a large country with complex cultural and ethnic situations.
Furthermore, the idea that NATO threatens Russia doesn’t come from Russia. Plenty of western experts have been saying this for many decades. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. Here’s what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
https://truthout.org/articles/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-russia-has-left-the-domain-of-rational-discourse/
https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/
50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"
Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
And of course, RAND published a whole study titled extending Russia where it proposes to use Ukraine as a western proxy the way is being done now. You’re either a shill or a useful idiot for the empire, either way not a good look.
Damn saved for further reading
The ethnic makeup of Ukraine and it’s election results is absolutely none of Russia’s business and it’s gives it no excuse to attack Ukraine. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, what happens internally is of no consequence of Russia. In the end, Ukraine ousted Yanukovych after it turned out he was in Putin’s pocket and fucked off to Russia. The people decided they didn’t want to align with Russia and Putin realised he was losing influence of the country he thinks should be under Russian control.
You still haven’t replied to my point about whether Russia or other nations should have surrendered when they were attacked by axis powers. They fought back against aggressive tyrants and kept their land at huge costs. Ukraine are very much in the right to do the same.
Of course that’s bad. There’s a good reason why cluster munitions are banned and I’m against the US supplying them to Ukraine. In retrospect though this is virtually a none issue (it was used against Russian invaders and not civilians) given the terrorist attacks Russia launched against the civilian population, bombing hospitals, targeting apartment blocks, stealing Ukrainian children, raping and murdering their way through the country. I’m sure someone as intelligent and with a balanced view will be constantly denouncing the atrocities that they’ve caused and calling out Russia for its war crimes, and calling for them to stop the attacks.
The NATO crap isn’t even worth discussing and is just a flimsy excuse from Russia to try and justify the “special military operation”. Ukraine isn’t even in NATO but Russia has done a damn good job of promoting the organisation. Former Soviet countries have joined or want to join precisely because of the behaviour exhibited by Russia. It’s their sovereign right as independent country to decide if they join, it’s none of Russia’s business.
After the western sponsored coup in 2014 the eastern regions of Ukraine wanted to separate and Ukraine has been in a civil war since then. What Russia did is actually directly modelled on what NATO did in Yugoslavia where they recognized the independence of the breakaway regions and then had them invite NATO for help. That’s literally the precedent that you NATO chuds set.
The point where you’re trying to compare people of eastern Ukraine fighting for independence from the coup regime that was shelling them with cluster munitions to nazis? If you don’t understand why that’s an idiotic comparison, then what else is there to say to you.
Oh, it’s bad, but the people the coup regime was shelling apparently don’t get a right of self determination according to you.
Actual geopolitical experts disagree, but I guess you think you know better because you’ve demonstrated such deep understanding of the subject in this thread. Fun fact is that Russia wanted to join NATO in the 90s and NATO told Russia to fuck off after which point NATO went on to invade a bunch of countries such as Yugoslavia, Libya, and Syria and continued to surround Russia militarily.
You’re an ignoramus and you should be deeply ashamed of yourself.