So naturally you realize that, despite authoritarian “communism” as practiced by the Soviet Union and China, inspired by Marxist-Leninist thinking and then by Stalin and Mao are just one interpretation of Marxism (which is one interpretation of communism/socialist theory) that diverged significantly in embracing something more resembling state capitalism and enduring dictatorship, whereas Marx viewed the dictatorship of the proletariat as simply describing the revolutionary transition to a classless society.
Actually, not true. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were both notorious authoritarians, and it reflects pretty heavily in their ideology. They were both well known for being very pro violence and pro power grabs, so much so that they were infamous for it. They’re pretty well documented for the ways they used to mock pacifist socialists at the time for not being as extreme and violent as they are. Socialism as a concept has a lot of different interpretations, but Marxism? Not so much.
Potentially violent revolution =/= authoritarian. Also Marx believed that in more democratic and free nations that nonviolent ways of achieving communism was actually plausible, he just didn’t believe so for most of the world. He just had very little faith in existing power structures allowing the proletariat majority to take power away from them nonviolently, especially outside of a few already very “left” leaning democracies.
Damn dude, stop making me argue in favor of pure Marxism, I’m not even a communist, I’m just a bit left of social Democrats personally.
Marxism didn’t stop at the revolution though. Marxism can be simplified to 3 overarching steps:
A violent revolution that overthrows capitalism where the economy is seized, capitalists are eliminated, and capitalist institutions are burned down (literally and metaphorically).
The dictatorship of the proletariat is established. This is where a transitional authoritarian socialist government takes hold of the states and rules with an iron fist to establish socialism and bring about the social climate necessary to achieve communism by any means necessary.
Actually realize communism
Since step 3 is a utopia that won’t ever happen, the ideology will always end up at step two. That’s why every single Marxist attempt that hasn’t failed during the revolution phase will inevitably hit a brick wall when a the tyrannical transitional government gets hold and never leaves. All the tyrannical regimes we’ve seen aren’t coincidences, they’re an integral part of the Marxist ideology. Maoist China is what Marxism looks like when it’s implemented down to the letter… and it ain’t pretty. Again, both Marx and Engels were both very vocal and notorious authoritarians who specifically advocated for this stuff. They went out of their way to mock and criticize pacifist socialists who wanted to make progress without bloodshed via things like reform. This isn’t some secret, it’s pretty well documented.
Yet I have. Marx shitty writings aren’t some holy scripture. He was shitty authoritarian philosopher who poorly analyzed the society he lived in and came up with a shitty ideology that failed in both theory and practice. Everything that I said comes from his works. If you have actual criticism then voice them otherwise don’t waste my time.
Okay then tell me, what have you actually read by the guy? Everything you’ve said just tells that at best you skimmed the Communist Manifesto without the patience or curiosity to understand why Marx wrote it and the context under which it was written. You seem so ready and willing to casually dismiss him even though his work is foundational to much of modern sociology right alongside Max Weber.
This person is so confidently wrong it’s actually gotten under my skin. I wouldn’t call myself a Marxist, anyway his ideas have been built on and corrected in places in the ~180 years since he wrote them down, but his work is massively influential and it has been represented so badly here.
It’s baffling to lie about a theory because it’s not written by someone “on your team” or something. Like a fuckload of his work is dry as shit historical analysis and economic theory which still shapes thought today and the poster is acting like all Marxism entails is a few pamphlets about taking power.
It’s as weird to me as someone being like “Adam Smith loved violence and poverty” because the wealth of nations talks about thr impotance of military control and some of the causes of poverty.
It really shouldn’t but it’s gotten under my bloody skin with how irrational and fervent they are being.
I’ve studied the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital in college, which is pretty standard. I’ve also read a few of his shorter works like the Critique of the Gotha Programme and On the Jewish Question (which is interestingly one of the more antisemitic works I’ve ever read despite him having Jewish heritage). I also read a few newspapers that featured him during his time, but I don’t really count those.
There’s no denying that his work is influential. This is evidenced by the fact that we’re talking about it right now. But just because it’s influential that doesn’t mean it’s right, or even good. His analysis was flawed and criticized quite a bit, even during his time. But today? A lot of analysis is just irrelevant because it’s a product of a bygone era. You could make an argument that his analysis led to some objectively good things, and that would be true to an extent, however, this is overshadowed by all the disasters that his views led to. What he envisioned for communism and how to get there was a failure in both theory and practice, and this evidenced by the fact that every implementation of his ideas has resulted in catastrophes.
A violent revolution that overthrows capitalism where the economy is seized, capitalists are eliminated, and capitalist institutions are burned down (literally and metaphorically).
Marxists believe revolution is inevitable as long as Capitalism is not transitioned from willingly, as a consequence of Capitalism itself. Secondly, killing the bourgeoisie is not a necessary step, removing the apparatus that entails their positions, ie private property rights, is necessary. Thirdly, “Capitalist Institutions” being burned down is vague and likely not what Marxists believe. Replacing, or reconfiguring them along collectivized lines, sure, burning for the sake of burning, no.
The dictatorship of the proletariat is established. This is where a transitional authoritarian socialist government takes hold of the states and rules with an iron fist to establish socialism and bring about the social climate necessary to achieve communism by any means necessary.
The Dictatorship of the Proletariat is simply democracy with the proletariat in control, and the Bourgeoisie suppressed. This is a direct counter to the modern Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie, such as what is found in America. The idea of it being “authoritarian” is only true with respect to Capitalists, it is a more democratic state for more people. The phrase “iron fist” is also loaded, in reality it means Capitalists cannot be allowed to take back control. Same with the phrase “by any means necessary,” it’s just fearmongering.
Actually realize communism
Sure, this is correct.
Since step 3 is a utopia that won’t ever happen, the ideology will always end up at step two.
That’s unfounded. Reading Critique of the Gotha Programme gives an idea of what Marxists actually believe can be done to achieve Communism, it isn’t an impossibility but it also isn’t a utopia like you claim. It’s certainly a better society, but not one with infinite replicators or anything.
That’s why every single Marxist attempt that hasn’t failed during the revolution phase will inevitably hit a brick wall when a the tyrannical transitional government gets hold and never leaves.
Marx himself never believed Communism was about government “deciding” to leave, but the State as defined by Marx would wither. Government as we commonly understand it would still exist in Communism!
All the tyrannical regimes we’ve seen aren’t coincidences, they’re an integral part of the Marxist ideology. Maoist China is what Marxism looks like when it’s implemented down to the letter… and it ain’t pretty.
More vibes based, generally. What metric is the distinction between “tyrannical” and “fair and democratic?” Are there any non-tyrannical states, in your eyes?
Again, both Marx and Engels were both very vocal and notorious authoritarians who specifically advocated for this stuff. They went out of their way to mock and criticize pacifist socialists who wanted to make progress without bloodshed via things like reform. This isn’t some secret, it’s pretty well documented.
They ended up being correct, reform has never once worked in the favor of the Proletariat in establishing Socialism. The closest was Allende in Chile, and he was couped by the US within 2 years of democratically taking office.
So naturally you realize that, despite authoritarian “communism” as practiced by the Soviet Union and China, inspired by Marxist-Leninist thinking and then by Stalin and Mao are just one interpretation of Marxism (which is one interpretation of communism/socialist theory) that diverged significantly in embracing something more resembling state capitalism and enduring dictatorship, whereas Marx viewed the dictatorship of the proletariat as simply describing the revolutionary transition to a classless society.
Actually, not true. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were both notorious authoritarians, and it reflects pretty heavily in their ideology. They were both well known for being very pro violence and pro power grabs, so much so that they were infamous for it. They’re pretty well documented for the ways they used to mock pacifist socialists at the time for not being as extreme and violent as they are. Socialism as a concept has a lot of different interpretations, but Marxism? Not so much.
Potentially violent revolution =/= authoritarian. Also Marx believed that in more democratic and free nations that nonviolent ways of achieving communism was actually plausible, he just didn’t believe so for most of the world. He just had very little faith in existing power structures allowing the proletariat majority to take power away from them nonviolently, especially outside of a few already very “left” leaning democracies.
Damn dude, stop making me argue in favor of pure Marxism, I’m not even a communist, I’m just a bit left of social Democrats personally.
Marxism didn’t stop at the revolution though. Marxism can be simplified to 3 overarching steps:
A violent revolution that overthrows capitalism where the economy is seized, capitalists are eliminated, and capitalist institutions are burned down (literally and metaphorically).
The dictatorship of the proletariat is established. This is where a transitional authoritarian socialist government takes hold of the states and rules with an iron fist to establish socialism and bring about the social climate necessary to achieve communism by any means necessary.
Actually realize communism
Since step 3 is a utopia that won’t ever happen, the ideology will always end up at step two. That’s why every single Marxist attempt that hasn’t failed during the revolution phase will inevitably hit a brick wall when a the tyrannical transitional government gets hold and never leaves. All the tyrannical regimes we’ve seen aren’t coincidences, they’re an integral part of the Marxist ideology. Maoist China is what Marxism looks like when it’s implemented down to the letter… and it ain’t pretty. Again, both Marx and Engels were both very vocal and notorious authoritarians who specifically advocated for this stuff. They went out of their way to mock and criticize pacifist socialists who wanted to make progress without bloodshed via things like reform. This isn’t some secret, it’s pretty well documented.
It’s painfully obvious you’ve never really engaged with Marx’s writings.
Yet I have. Marx shitty writings aren’t some holy scripture. He was shitty authoritarian philosopher who poorly analyzed the society he lived in and came up with a shitty ideology that failed in both theory and practice. Everything that I said comes from his works. If you have actual criticism then voice them otherwise don’t waste my time.
Okay then tell me, what have you actually read by the guy? Everything you’ve said just tells that at best you skimmed the Communist Manifesto without the patience or curiosity to understand why Marx wrote it and the context under which it was written. You seem so ready and willing to casually dismiss him even though his work is foundational to much of modern sociology right alongside Max Weber.
This person is so confidently wrong it’s actually gotten under my skin. I wouldn’t call myself a Marxist, anyway his ideas have been built on and corrected in places in the ~180 years since he wrote them down, but his work is massively influential and it has been represented so badly here.
It’s baffling to lie about a theory because it’s not written by someone “on your team” or something. Like a fuckload of his work is dry as shit historical analysis and economic theory which still shapes thought today and the poster is acting like all Marxism entails is a few pamphlets about taking power.
It’s as weird to me as someone being like “Adam Smith loved violence and poverty” because the wealth of nations talks about thr impotance of military control and some of the causes of poverty.
It really shouldn’t but it’s gotten under my bloody skin with how irrational and fervent they are being.
I’ve studied the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital in college, which is pretty standard. I’ve also read a few of his shorter works like the Critique of the Gotha Programme and On the Jewish Question (which is interestingly one of the more antisemitic works I’ve ever read despite him having Jewish heritage). I also read a few newspapers that featured him during his time, but I don’t really count those.
There’s no denying that his work is influential. This is evidenced by the fact that we’re talking about it right now. But just because it’s influential that doesn’t mean it’s right, or even good. His analysis was flawed and criticized quite a bit, even during his time. But today? A lot of analysis is just irrelevant because it’s a product of a bygone era. You could make an argument that his analysis led to some objectively good things, and that would be true to an extent, however, this is overshadowed by all the disasters that his views led to. What he envisioned for communism and how to get there was a failure in both theory and practice, and this evidenced by the fact that every implementation of his ideas has resulted in catastrophes.
Okay then Marx expert, let’s get into the weeds here. What exactly do you think is wrong with utopian socialism?
Marxists believe revolution is inevitable as long as Capitalism is not transitioned from willingly, as a consequence of Capitalism itself. Secondly, killing the bourgeoisie is not a necessary step, removing the apparatus that entails their positions, ie private property rights, is necessary. Thirdly, “Capitalist Institutions” being burned down is vague and likely not what Marxists believe. Replacing, or reconfiguring them along collectivized lines, sure, burning for the sake of burning, no.
The Dictatorship of the Proletariat is simply democracy with the proletariat in control, and the Bourgeoisie suppressed. This is a direct counter to the modern Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie, such as what is found in America. The idea of it being “authoritarian” is only true with respect to Capitalists, it is a more democratic state for more people. The phrase “iron fist” is also loaded, in reality it means Capitalists cannot be allowed to take back control. Same with the phrase “by any means necessary,” it’s just fearmongering.
Sure, this is correct.
That’s unfounded. Reading Critique of the Gotha Programme gives an idea of what Marxists actually believe can be done to achieve Communism, it isn’t an impossibility but it also isn’t a utopia like you claim. It’s certainly a better society, but not one with infinite replicators or anything.
Marx himself never believed Communism was about government “deciding” to leave, but the State as defined by Marx would wither. Government as we commonly understand it would still exist in Communism!
More vibes based, generally. What metric is the distinction between “tyrannical” and “fair and democratic?” Are there any non-tyrannical states, in your eyes?
They ended up being correct, reform has never once worked in the favor of the Proletariat in establishing Socialism. The closest was Allende in Chile, and he was couped by the US within 2 years of democratically taking office.