Responsibility implies action. The majority of people in our country who have been brainwashed by the right-wing infosphere haven’t done anything. If people are physically attacked by someone, they should defend themselves. But thinking fascist thoughts isn’t a violation of the social contract of tolerance.
Many of them don’t realize what they are voting for. Even if a person could identify the people who knowingly vote for fascism this information does us no good. Acting preemptively on that information subverts what’s left of our democracy, which is still our most effective tool against fascism. Engaging in that kind of political violence makes it harder to resit fascism. Acting retroactively on that information is an exercise in revenge which does nothing to resist fascism. Violence doesn’t inherently make a person a fascist, but it is our least effective tool.
If they don’t realize who they’re voting for then why are they voting?
Acting on who someone votes for is not preemptive, and revenge does a good amount to resist fascism. We’ve seen what happens when people roll over and do nothing, and look where we are now?
Anyone who cannot see the obvious lies of the GOP is so dumb that I don’t mind lumping them in with all the people who vote red for other reasons.
The bottom line is, I refuse to absolve these people of any responsibility. They refuse to take responsibility for their ignorance, their hatred, and/or their glee at other people’s suffering. If you exercise the power to vote, that comes with the responsibility of educating yourself about what you’re voting on. Anything else is an incredible abuse of power. If you want to stay in your own little bubble and ignore the outside world, then you don’t get to subject the rest of us to your vote. These people are hurting us. Removing education opportunities. Killing public transport. Enabling corruption. Appointing phony judges. Polluting the planet. Stealing from us. Literally killing us. I refuse to let that slide.
Anyone who cannot see the obvious lies of the GOP is so dumb that I don’t mind lumping them in with all the people who vote red for other reasons.
Information silos aren’t an intelligence test. Anyone who has only false information will come to incorrect conclusions.
The bottom line is, I refuse to absolve these people of any responsibility.
Whether a person should be held to account for their voting is a moot point as acting on the information presents the same issues I raised in my argument earlier. I believe people should not be held to account for their vote. If all the fascists did was vote we would be in no danger. I take issue with fascists who will do more violent things than just vote.
If you want to stay in your own little bubble and ignore the outside world, then you don’t get to subject the rest of us to your vote.
The problem is the people who are brainwashed do not know this. People are trapped in information silos via their ignorance. That’s how information silos work.
If Hawley is right, then the alt-right’s constituency isn’t a tiny fringe. It’s about 11 million Americans.
The wrong thing to conclude from Hawley’s data is that there’s a massive number of people who are active participants in the alt-right. Last year’s Charlottesville rally only had several hundred participants; this year’s DC sequel isn’t expected to be orders of magnitude larger.
The study is from 2018 but I think it’s still relevant even when taking account everything that’s happened since Jan 6th. The total number of self-identifying fascists in the worst case scenario could not currently exceed 11 million Americans. Even in the worst case scenario, the total number of self-identifying fascists is small compared to the US population, which is somewhere between 330 to 340 million people. The total number of self-identifying fascists, is probably at most only a few million people, maybe fewer. The right-wing infosphere’s ability to garner tens of millions of votes, despite spreading the ideas held by a small fraction of the population, is what makes it so dangerous. That’s why spreading true information is so important.
Condemning everyone who voted Trump to political violence is self-defeating. With that strategy we are effectively creating tens of millions of enemies.
edit: This is in response to the above comment’s edit. Political violence is preemptive if it’s done before a fascist takeover and it’s revenge if done after a fascist takeover. If the fascists takeover has already been completed then the revenge isn’t about resisting it. Political violence will not deter fascists. We already know capital punishment doesn’t deter violent crime.
Information silos aren’t an intelligence test. Anyone who has only false information will come to incorrect conclusions.
Anyone who doesn’t realize that they’re consuming media from an information silo could stand to be a bit more intelligent. No silo is perfect; at some point, even if they don’t independently seek new sources of information, they’ll come into contact with one. Fox news watchers know CNN exists, they simply refuse to watch it. To be fair, I don’t watch a lot of Fox either, but I do get my news from at least more than one source!
Whether a person should be held to account for their voting is a moot point as acting on the information presents the same issues I raised in my argument earlier.
You’ve said this a few times and I’m beginning to believe we might not be on the same page here. I’m not necessarily advocating for violence (although it would be valid IMO to claim that it would be justified). I’m saying that voting carries with it a moral responsibility. When someone is responsible for an act that negatively effects many people, something should happen, but what that something is varies with the act and the nature of their responsibility. I think a primary method of response in this case could simply be acknowledging that the act was negative and showing the voter how it has hurt people.
I believe people should not be held to account for their vote.
Same as above, do you mean we shouldn’t harm them or we shouldn’t acknowledge how they are harming us?
If all the fascists did was vote we would be in no danger. I take issue with fascists who will do more violent things than just vote.
Voting is action. Voting for someone who has promised to implement a set of policies is voting for those policies (at least, in comparison to all other options). For any policy that you have voted on applying, you bear some responsibility for its effects. In politics, a policy can be basically anything. They can literally kill, save lives, impoverish, enrich, etc. Voting for a policy that you know will kill someone is violence. Any of these effects that can be easily predicted are partially your responsibility to bear.
A fascist that does not vote can be stopped by the force of law. A fascist that does vote decides what the law is. That is far more dangerous.
The problem is the people who are brainwashed do not know this. People are trapped in information silos via their ignorance. That’s how information silos work.
This describes the issue accurately I think. The solution is still to educate them to break the silo, or at least convince them to be truly isolated and not vote.
The right-wing infosphere’s ability to garner tens of millions of votes, despite spreading the ideas held by a small fraction of the population, is what makes it so dangerous. That’s why spreading true information is so important.
100% agreed.
Condemning everyone who voted Trump to political violence is self-defeating. With that strategy we are effectively creating tens of millions of enemies.
This is also true. Just because someone is currently doing something bad, that doesn’t always mean that the beat course of action is punishment. Sometimes you can prevent the most negative outcomes by being less confrontational.
Political violence is preemptive if it’s done before a fascist takeover and it’s revenge if done after a fascist takeover.
Preemptive political violence is undesirable only because you lose some justification. It is often the theoretically correct move to prevent a fascist takeover, but cannot be implemented because not everyone is convinced that it is justified yet or ever. See eg. Germany, which can dismantle entire political parties if they threaten the democratic order.
Violence after a hostile takeover is not only revenge, but also necessary to retake control. I see no issue with this whatsoever; the revenge is a bonus to the necessity.
I think we’re on the same page here in terms of the appropriate response to the rise of fascism and similar ideologies. The difference is that I view it as morally wrong to fall for the grift and/or to vote for bad policies.
The death penalty may not prevent violent crime, but education, assistance, and sanctions are much more effective.
You seem to be absolving them of any responsibility here. Brainwashing isn’t magical, they have simply been convinced to be evil.
Responsibility implies action. The majority of people in our country who have been brainwashed by the right-wing infosphere haven’t done anything. If people are physically attacked by someone, they should defend themselves. But thinking fascist thoughts isn’t a violation of the social contract of tolerance.
Thinking them may not be (although only because I believe in absolute freedom of thought). But voting for them certainly is!
Many of them don’t realize what they are voting for. Even if a person could identify the people who knowingly vote for fascism this information does us no good. Acting preemptively on that information subverts what’s left of our democracy, which is still our most effective tool against fascism. Engaging in that kind of political violence makes it harder to resit fascism. Acting retroactively on that information is an exercise in revenge which does nothing to resist fascism. Violence doesn’t inherently make a person a fascist, but it is our least effective tool.
If they don’t realize who they’re voting for then why are they voting?
Acting on who someone votes for is not preemptive, and revenge does a good amount to resist fascism. We’ve seen what happens when people roll over and do nothing, and look where we are now?
They think they are voting in their own self-interest because they’ve been lied to.
edit in response to the above comment’s edit: I’m responding to this in a later comment.
Anyone who cannot see the obvious lies of the GOP is so dumb that I don’t mind lumping them in with all the people who vote red for other reasons.
The bottom line is, I refuse to absolve these people of any responsibility. They refuse to take responsibility for their ignorance, their hatred, and/or their glee at other people’s suffering. If you exercise the power to vote, that comes with the responsibility of educating yourself about what you’re voting on. Anything else is an incredible abuse of power. If you want to stay in your own little bubble and ignore the outside world, then you don’t get to subject the rest of us to your vote. These people are hurting us. Removing education opportunities. Killing public transport. Enabling corruption. Appointing phony judges. Polluting the planet. Stealing from us. Literally killing us. I refuse to let that slide.
Information silos aren’t an intelligence test. Anyone who has only false information will come to incorrect conclusions.
Whether a person should be held to account for their voting is a moot point as acting on the information presents the same issues I raised in my argument earlier. I believe people should not be held to account for their vote. If all the fascists did was vote we would be in no danger. I take issue with fascists who will do more violent things than just vote.
The problem is the people who are brainwashed do not know this. People are trapped in information silos via their ignorance. That’s how information silos work.
https://www.cfr.org/blog/2020-election-numbers
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670992/study-white-americans-alt-right-racism-white-nationalists
The study is from 2018 but I think it’s still relevant even when taking account everything that’s happened since Jan 6th. The total number of self-identifying fascists in the worst case scenario could not currently exceed 11 million Americans. Even in the worst case scenario, the total number of self-identifying fascists is small compared to the US population, which is somewhere between 330 to 340 million people. The total number of self-identifying fascists, is probably at most only a few million people, maybe fewer. The right-wing infosphere’s ability to garner tens of millions of votes, despite spreading the ideas held by a small fraction of the population, is what makes it so dangerous. That’s why spreading true information is so important.
Condemning everyone who voted Trump to political violence is self-defeating. With that strategy we are effectively creating tens of millions of enemies.
edit: This is in response to the above comment’s edit. Political violence is preemptive if it’s done before a fascist takeover and it’s revenge if done after a fascist takeover. If the fascists takeover has already been completed then the revenge isn’t about resisting it. Political violence will not deter fascists. We already know capital punishment doesn’t deter violent crime.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/a-clear-scientific-consensus-that-the-death-penalty-does-not-deter/
I admire your dedication and sources.
Anyone who doesn’t realize that they’re consuming media from an information silo could stand to be a bit more intelligent. No silo is perfect; at some point, even if they don’t independently seek new sources of information, they’ll come into contact with one. Fox news watchers know CNN exists, they simply refuse to watch it. To be fair, I don’t watch a lot of Fox either, but I do get my news from at least more than one source!
You’ve said this a few times and I’m beginning to believe we might not be on the same page here. I’m not necessarily advocating for violence (although it would be valid IMO to claim that it would be justified). I’m saying that voting carries with it a moral responsibility. When someone is responsible for an act that negatively effects many people, something should happen, but what that something is varies with the act and the nature of their responsibility. I think a primary method of response in this case could simply be acknowledging that the act was negative and showing the voter how it has hurt people.
Same as above, do you mean we shouldn’t harm them or we shouldn’t acknowledge how they are harming us?
Voting is action. Voting for someone who has promised to implement a set of policies is voting for those policies (at least, in comparison to all other options). For any policy that you have voted on applying, you bear some responsibility for its effects. In politics, a policy can be basically anything. They can literally kill, save lives, impoverish, enrich, etc. Voting for a policy that you know will kill someone is violence. Any of these effects that can be easily predicted are partially your responsibility to bear.
A fascist that does not vote can be stopped by the force of law. A fascist that does vote decides what the law is. That is far more dangerous.
This describes the issue accurately I think. The solution is still to educate them to break the silo, or at least convince them to be truly isolated and not vote.
100% agreed.
This is also true. Just because someone is currently doing something bad, that doesn’t always mean that the beat course of action is punishment. Sometimes you can prevent the most negative outcomes by being less confrontational.
Preemptive political violence is undesirable only because you lose some justification. It is often the theoretically correct move to prevent a fascist takeover, but cannot be implemented because not everyone is convinced that it is justified yet or ever. See eg. Germany, which can dismantle entire political parties if they threaten the democratic order.
Violence after a hostile takeover is not only revenge, but also necessary to retake control. I see no issue with this whatsoever; the revenge is a bonus to the necessity.
I think we’re on the same page here in terms of the appropriate response to the rise of fascism and similar ideologies. The difference is that I view it as morally wrong to fall for the grift and/or to vote for bad policies.
The death penalty may not prevent violent crime, but education, assistance, and sanctions are much more effective.