• TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.worldEnglish
    1615·
    3 months ago

    Again, it boils down to “define socialism”.

    Are we talking about USSR, Cuba and China-type socialism? Then they are all those things.

    But if we’re talking about Finland, Denmark Sweden and Norway-socialism, then I’m on board with socialism!

    • coldy@lemmy.worldEnglish
      261·
      3 months ago

      The problem is that none of the countries you listed were ever socialist. Finland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway are just capitalist countries with good social policies.

      And as much as their propagandists wish they did, the USSR, Cuba and China never got past the state capitalism part of establishing socialism.

      There has never really been a socialist country in the world, it’s a bit of a moot point to go like “I like this kind of socialism but not this kind” when nobody ever got to see it…

      • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.worldEnglish
        54·
        3 months ago

        That’s my point. Socialism developed a broad meaning as time went on. Before, it started to mean simply demanding better worker’s rights and conditions. But evolved to mean businesses owned by workers. Eventually, communism came into the scene and started to promote stateless society run by the proletariat. Then with so many people being turned off by the violence of communism, the more moderate left-- social democrats-- advocated to implement socialism through political and electoral mobilisation. But even then, as time progressed, social democrats abandoned their attempts to implement wholesale socialism and instead rein capitalism with sweeping regulations, instead of abolishing capitalism. Nonetheless, even though social democracy still embraced capitalism, the ideology is still considered under the wide tent of socialism but further right to it.

        • sem@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          31·
          3 months ago

          IIRC communism was the original Das Kapital version, and socialism came into being as “communism-lite” not really following Marx’s ideal but giving some good things to workers

          • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.worldEnglish
            4·
            3 months ago

            The term socialism was first coined in 1832, way before Das Kapital has been published in 1866. But before Karl Marx, socialism as we know it wasn’t something that is fully solid despite the term already being coined. During 1848 liberal revolution, there were some who participated who’d be considered “socialists”, but they don’t necessarily know what they want.

            • sem@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
              2·
              3 months ago

              That’s really cool! Thanks for the context I hadn’t known about that broader current of socialist thinking

    • SkunkWorkz@lemmy.worldEnglish
      11·
      3 months ago

      Define the Nordic Model. It’s not socialism what they have. At best it’s a social democracy. They still run on a capitalistic system. Not to mention they are crawling to the right.

    • MBM@lemmings.worldEnglish
      9·
      3 months ago

      Using socialist to mean “has social policies” is weird to me (and some of the Nordics aren’t in a great state government-wise right now)

      • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.worldEnglish
        5·
        3 months ago

        Socialism has a broad definition than antisemitism. Does it mean worker-run businesses? Businesses run by the government on behalf of workers? Or should society be organised by commune?

        Anti-semitism is anti-semitism. Nevermind what Hasbara says and the Israeli state weaponising the term to their convenience, anti-semitism just means being bigoted against Jews.