I think I can say that I am living in germany, currently a country not under the government of national fascists, that has a law against so called “Volksverhetzung” which has been introduced quite literally to prevent some speech of the nationalist fascists, to prevent them from spreading their hateful ideology. Maybe you wanna think about that for awhile.
This isn’t about ideas it is about calling for violence towards people. This isn’t how you get Nazis this is the “you already have Nazis and need to do something about it”
Also, funnily enough, the proletariat or what’s left of it, are the ones currently flocking to the right-wing extremist party here in Germany.
Nah bruv, as an american, the people are too dumb to not need some sort of protection from hate speech and ideas. A fact checker needs to be a mandatory public service at this point. I feel the same way about the homeless bum who shouts at everyone downtown that their participation in consummerism is destroying everything. If they called for violence, it would be a step too far.
If the people are too dumb to be trusted with an unrestricted marketplace of ideas, the they’re too dumb to be allowed to vote for their own government.
If you believe in democracy, you have to also believe that the majority of people can be trusted with the information necessary to make informed political choices.
If the people can’t be trusted to act in their best interests in an informed manner, then we might as well just adopt Plato’s philosopher-kings system instead, and make all of the peoples’ decisions for them.
This is why the GOP has been working hard for decades to destroy public education in the US. They want to make sure that only the rich are educated because the uneducated can be easily tricked into voting against their own interests. Unfortunately it’s working.
It’s mandatory in a functioning democracy for the public to be educated and well informed or it doesn’t work. Unfortunately it’s highly debatable whether the US still qualifies as educated, and the likes of Fox News and Sinclair are hard at work destroying the informed part.
All that said the ease with which misinformation spreads these days does need some kind of counter, otherwise we open ourselves up to Soviet style disinformation campaigns where the goal isn’t so much to drive a particular narrative as it is to sow confusion and make people distrust all information. They drown the signal in noise, so everyone just makes decisions based on their gut instead of facts. Social media has given a false equivalence where any random person on Facebook is treated as just as reliable a source of news and information as actual reporters are. This is incredibly dangerous.
I have a question for you. Do you think advertising works not just as an informative medium but as a manipulative medium as well? Do people have free will while shopping or are they completely following whatever ad is in front of their faces? Or is it maybe a middle ground between the two extremes that’s actually the truth?
I believe that if we allow advertisements at all, we must do so on the assumption that the majority of people have complete free will while shopping, especially in the modern world where we have so many more ways of accessing and sharing information than has ever been possible. It is, however, reasonable for the majority to enact advertising protections that would benefit the dumb/manipulable minority.
The difference is that we can’t do so for political information in a democracy, because the entity that enacts and enforces the supposed “protections” (i.e. the government) is exactly the same entity that is directly affected by the subsequent political choices of the people based on that information.
Once again, the question is, “Are the majority of people too dumb or easily manipulated to be trusted with the system?” If so, then we should do away with the system altogether and have a government of philosopher-kings decide how resources should be distributed.
As for what I personally think, about both advertising and government? Nowadays I go back and forth. When I was younger and more naive, I believed that people could be trusted with making their own decisions, but the older I get and the more I see how truly stupid people are, the more I question whether that’s actually the case.
At this point, politically I’m still firmly in the camp of, “The people must be fully trusted with information to make their own political decisions, for good or ill,” because to believe otherwise is to believe that democracy is not possible, and I’m not ready to make that step quite yet (and I honestly don’t really want to).
What I do know is that there is no middle ground. I do not believe in “democracy” where the government restricts in any way the information that the people have access to when making decisions about that very government. That’s already autocracy under the guise of “democracy”, so we might as well stop fooling ourselves at that point.
The difference is that we can’t do so for political information in a democracy
I think I see where I failed to communicate. The laws that germany enacted are not about information. They are for (or rather against) instigating hate and violence against groups of people. Which I wouldn’t classify as ‘political information’. I do get that that is a slippery slope and that this tool needs to be used with a lot of caution and oversight. But I think it is a necessary tool especially because of this:
It is, however, reasonable for the majority to enact advertising protections that would benefit the dumb/manipulable minority.
A manipulable minority that acts on these calls to violence is enough to deeply damage a democracy.
Once again, the question is, “Are the majority of people too dumb or easily manipulated to be trusted with the system?” If so, then we should do away with the system altogether and have a government of philosopher-kings decide how resources should be distributed.
An important thing to remember is that a large enough minority can really disturb a democratic system. We are seeing this right now in germanies eastern states where the AfD has won about 30% of the votes making any coalition between the other parties very unfavourable. No-one currently knows what the coalition talks will resolve to. The majority did vote for democratic parties but that isn’t enough, it has to be an overhelming majority that votes for democratic parties.
Also: I’d argue that representative democracies are a lot more susceptible to this kind of flaw where parties have to resort to manipulation to get the votes of people. Other forms of democracy do not have that flaw as extensively. We do not necessarily have to get rid of democracy to fix or at least improve that flaw.
As they say, “everything is political”. And yes, “only the information I say is political is allowed” is quite the overreach.
Believing that you’re the only person who deserves to exist and that everyone else should be killed is still a political view, and one that must be allowed to exist in a democracy as long as you don’t actually start killing people. Odious and hateful ideas are still political ideas (see: American Democrats and Republicans arguing that the others’ ideas are odious and hateful, for example), and if we believe in democracy we have to believe that the people can be trusted with unrestricted political information.
A manipulable minority that acts on these calls to violence is enough to deeply damage a democracy.
That’s why acting on those calls to violence is illegal, while speech is not.
The majority did vote for democratic parties but that isn’t enough, it has to be an overhelming majority that votes for democratic parties.
Yes, that’s a huge flaw of coalition system governments, but it doesn’t change the overall point - you either trust the people with the choice of electing their government, or you don’t. If you only trust some of the people with electing their government, you don’t have a democracy - you just have a slightly-larger-than-normal autocracy.
Also, unless I’m misunderstanding something (which I very well may be), it seems to me that 70% of the people voted for democracy in Germany - your elected representatives not being able to agree with each other is what appears to be the problem.
Also: I’d argue that representative democracies are a lot more susceptible to this kind of flaw where parties have to resort to manipulation to get the votes of people.
I was going to argue in my previous comment that representative democracies are dangerously close to autocracies already, but thought it too far afield from my main point. So, I think I agree with you here.
A system where more political decisions are voted on through direct democracy and representatives are only chosen to enact the policies already selected by the people would be less susceptible to these problems (but, again, would rely much more heavily on the people, which, again, is the entire question).
(Also, I’ve enjoyed this conversation so far - thanks!)
and if we believe in democracy we have to believe that the people can be trusted with unrestricted political information.
I do agree with that, that’s not what I’m arguing. What I’m saying that there is a difference between political information and calls to action. And I don’t think making that separation and acting on one but not the other is not harmful but rather helpful for democracy as it allows more people to participate, namely those that would otherwise have to fear calls for violence against them.
That’s why acting on those calls to violence is illegal, while speech is not.
The point of this law is that having to deal with calls to violence towards a group will likely alter the behaviour of that group in a negative way as well as create direct risks for that group. There is a benefit towards more diversity to restrict some speech. I think this is a good tradeoff.
Also, unless I’m misunderstanding something (which I very well may be), it seems to me that 70% of the people voted for democracy in Germany - your elected representatives not being able to agree with each other is what appears to be the problem.
Nope that is basically what’s happening here, but it is not really the fault of the people that got elected. We elected a very diverse mix of parties and it is hard to make coalitions in this political climate. This has been the case for a long time but for a lot of the past decades it was enough for two parties to form a coalition for a majority. With the right-wing extremists getting this many votes this has changed towards three or even four parties being involved for majority talks. It’s just honestly a big mess leaving no-one satisfied which in turn only feeds the populists that paint the picture of germany as a failing state.
I was going to argue in my previous comment that representative democracies are dangerously close to autocracies already, but thought it too far afield from my main point. So, I think I agree with you here.
I’m not sure I’d say it is close to autocracies, it is more a plutocracy where the money gets you more political influence, similar to the times when voting rights depended on your wealth but less direct making everything looking more shady in the process. This just fuels suspicions and undermines trust in the institutions which is how you get at least minority support for parties that want to openly destroy the system.
A system where more political decisions are voted on through direct democracy and representatives are only chosen to enact the policies already selected by the people would be less susceptible to these problems (but, again, would rely much more heavily on the people, which, again, is the entire question).
I’m not a big fan of direct democracy on large scales mostly because I honestly don’t think I have the time and energy to have an informed opinion on everything that needs to be decided on in a functioning state. Which makes me assumes that that is probably true for at least a lot of other people too. I like the idea of randomly selected representatives that get compensated to pause their jobs for a period of a few years. It gets rid of some of the bad incentives the party systems have created with people focusing on political “careers” making themselves dependent on being popular.
Very interesting “democracy or philosipher-king” point, though maybe another option in between is possible. I believe it is people’s responisibility to self govern and that noone has the right to take that away. I don’t want people to be told what to think, but I also don’t trust them in our current system. I’m saying we need an apolitical tool for flagging lies to help people not accept everything that fits their current worldview.
Also, on your point later in the comment chain, I firmly believe elected officials should be suspended and imprisoned if they call for violence and then someone else performs that violence. Rhetoric has power and using that irresponsibly shouldn’t go unpunished. Majority rule with respect to the minority is my most important principle.
Controlling media and having a fact-checker pop up are two different things. Let people spout their nonsense, but flag sources of misinformation as unreliable.
They already have thought about it - see the part where they’re glad our rights aren’t curtailed just because someone might say some words that hurt your feelings.
Germany can take their nanny state bullshit and fuck right off.
I think I can say that I am living in germany, currently a country not under the government of national fascists, that has a law against so called “Volksverhetzung” which has been introduced quite literally to prevent some speech of the nationalist fascists, to prevent them from spreading their hateful ideology. Maybe you wanna think about that for awhile.
The prolitariat doesn’t need the protection of governance from ideas. That’s how we get Nazis. Study your history.
This isn’t about ideas it is about calling for violence towards people. This isn’t how you get Nazis this is the “you already have Nazis and need to do something about it”
Also, funnily enough, the proletariat or what’s left of it, are the ones currently flocking to the right-wing extremist party here in Germany.
Nah bruv, as an american, the people are too dumb to not need some sort of protection from hate speech and ideas. A fact checker needs to be a mandatory public service at this point. I feel the same way about the homeless bum who shouts at everyone downtown that their participation in consummerism is destroying everything. If they called for violence, it would be a step too far.
If the people are too dumb to be trusted with an unrestricted marketplace of ideas, the they’re too dumb to be allowed to vote for their own government.
If you believe in democracy, you have to also believe that the majority of people can be trusted with the information necessary to make informed political choices.
If the people can’t be trusted to act in their best interests in an informed manner, then we might as well just adopt Plato’s philosopher-kings system instead, and make all of the peoples’ decisions for them.
This is why the GOP has been working hard for decades to destroy public education in the US. They want to make sure that only the rich are educated because the uneducated can be easily tricked into voting against their own interests. Unfortunately it’s working.
It’s mandatory in a functioning democracy for the public to be educated and well informed or it doesn’t work. Unfortunately it’s highly debatable whether the US still qualifies as educated, and the likes of Fox News and Sinclair are hard at work destroying the informed part.
All that said the ease with which misinformation spreads these days does need some kind of counter, otherwise we open ourselves up to Soviet style disinformation campaigns where the goal isn’t so much to drive a particular narrative as it is to sow confusion and make people distrust all information. They drown the signal in noise, so everyone just makes decisions based on their gut instead of facts. Social media has given a false equivalence where any random person on Facebook is treated as just as reliable a source of news and information as actual reporters are. This is incredibly dangerous.
I have a question for you. Do you think advertising works not just as an informative medium but as a manipulative medium as well? Do people have free will while shopping or are they completely following whatever ad is in front of their faces? Or is it maybe a middle ground between the two extremes that’s actually the truth?
I believe that if we allow advertisements at all, we must do so on the assumption that the majority of people have complete free will while shopping, especially in the modern world where we have so many more ways of accessing and sharing information than has ever been possible. It is, however, reasonable for the majority to enact advertising protections that would benefit the dumb/manipulable minority.
The difference is that we can’t do so for political information in a democracy, because the entity that enacts and enforces the supposed “protections” (i.e. the government) is exactly the same entity that is directly affected by the subsequent political choices of the people based on that information.
Once again, the question is, “Are the majority of people too dumb or easily manipulated to be trusted with the system?” If so, then we should do away with the system altogether and have a government of philosopher-kings decide how resources should be distributed.
As for what I personally think, about both advertising and government? Nowadays I go back and forth. When I was younger and more naive, I believed that people could be trusted with making their own decisions, but the older I get and the more I see how truly stupid people are, the more I question whether that’s actually the case.
At this point, politically I’m still firmly in the camp of, “The people must be fully trusted with information to make their own political decisions, for good or ill,” because to believe otherwise is to believe that democracy is not possible, and I’m not ready to make that step quite yet (and I honestly don’t really want to).
What I do know is that there is no middle ground. I do not believe in “democracy” where the government restricts in any way the information that the people have access to when making decisions about that very government. That’s already autocracy under the guise of “democracy”, so we might as well stop fooling ourselves at that point.
I think I see where I failed to communicate. The laws that germany enacted are not about information. They are for (or rather against) instigating hate and violence against groups of people. Which I wouldn’t classify as ‘political information’. I do get that that is a slippery slope and that this tool needs to be used with a lot of caution and oversight. But I think it is a necessary tool especially because of this:
A manipulable minority that acts on these calls to violence is enough to deeply damage a democracy.
An important thing to remember is that a large enough minority can really disturb a democratic system. We are seeing this right now in germanies eastern states where the AfD has won about 30% of the votes making any coalition between the other parties very unfavourable. No-one currently knows what the coalition talks will resolve to. The majority did vote for democratic parties but that isn’t enough, it has to be an overhelming majority that votes for democratic parties.
Also: I’d argue that representative democracies are a lot more susceptible to this kind of flaw where parties have to resort to manipulation to get the votes of people. Other forms of democracy do not have that flaw as extensively. We do not necessarily have to get rid of democracy to fix or at least improve that flaw.
As they say, “everything is political”. And yes, “only the information I say is political is allowed” is quite the overreach.
Believing that you’re the only person who deserves to exist and that everyone else should be killed is still a political view, and one that must be allowed to exist in a democracy as long as you don’t actually start killing people. Odious and hateful ideas are still political ideas (see: American Democrats and Republicans arguing that the others’ ideas are odious and hateful, for example), and if we believe in democracy we have to believe that the people can be trusted with unrestricted political information.
That’s why acting on those calls to violence is illegal, while speech is not.
Yes, that’s a huge flaw of coalition system governments, but it doesn’t change the overall point - you either trust the people with the choice of electing their government, or you don’t. If you only trust some of the people with electing their government, you don’t have a democracy - you just have a slightly-larger-than-normal autocracy.
Also, unless I’m misunderstanding something (which I very well may be), it seems to me that 70% of the people voted for democracy in Germany - your elected representatives not being able to agree with each other is what appears to be the problem.
I was going to argue in my previous comment that representative democracies are dangerously close to autocracies already, but thought it too far afield from my main point. So, I think I agree with you here.
A system where more political decisions are voted on through direct democracy and representatives are only chosen to enact the policies already selected by the people would be less susceptible to these problems (but, again, would rely much more heavily on the people, which, again, is the entire question).
(Also, I’ve enjoyed this conversation so far - thanks!)
I do agree with that, that’s not what I’m arguing. What I’m saying that there is a difference between political information and calls to action. And I don’t think making that separation and acting on one but not the other is not harmful but rather helpful for democracy as it allows more people to participate, namely those that would otherwise have to fear calls for violence against them.
The point of this law is that having to deal with calls to violence towards a group will likely alter the behaviour of that group in a negative way as well as create direct risks for that group. There is a benefit towards more diversity to restrict some speech. I think this is a good tradeoff.
Nope that is basically what’s happening here, but it is not really the fault of the people that got elected. We elected a very diverse mix of parties and it is hard to make coalitions in this political climate. This has been the case for a long time but for a lot of the past decades it was enough for two parties to form a coalition for a majority. With the right-wing extremists getting this many votes this has changed towards three or even four parties being involved for majority talks. It’s just honestly a big mess leaving no-one satisfied which in turn only feeds the populists that paint the picture of germany as a failing state.
I’m not sure I’d say it is close to autocracies, it is more a plutocracy where the money gets you more political influence, similar to the times when voting rights depended on your wealth but less direct making everything looking more shady in the process. This just fuels suspicions and undermines trust in the institutions which is how you get at least minority support for parties that want to openly destroy the system.
I’m not a big fan of direct democracy on large scales mostly because I honestly don’t think I have the time and energy to have an informed opinion on everything that needs to be decided on in a functioning state. Which makes me assumes that that is probably true for at least a lot of other people too. I like the idea of randomly selected representatives that get compensated to pause their jobs for a period of a few years. It gets rid of some of the bad incentives the party systems have created with people focusing on political “careers” making themselves dependent on being popular.
Very interesting “democracy or philosipher-king” point, though maybe another option in between is possible. I believe it is people’s responisibility to self govern and that noone has the right to take that away. I don’t want people to be told what to think, but I also don’t trust them in our current system. I’m saying we need an apolitical tool for flagging lies to help people not accept everything that fits their current worldview. Also, on your point later in the comment chain, I firmly believe elected officials should be suspended and imprisoned if they call for violence and then someone else performs that violence. Rhetoric has power and using that irresponsibly shouldn’t go unpunished. Majority rule with respect to the minority is my most important principle.
And, that’s exactly how we got so dumb.
Check out The Manufacturing of Consent. Or, if lighter reading is your thing, 1984.
Controlling media and having a fact-checker pop up are two different things. Let people spout their nonsense, but flag sources of misinformation as unreliable.
They already have thought about it - see the part where they’re glad our rights aren’t curtailed just because someone might say some words that hurt your feelings.
Germany can take their nanny state bullshit and fuck right off.
That’s an opinion one can have, but it’s different from calling everyone that might want a more restrictive policy a nationalist fascist