I think we have different standards for the start of an ideology. I’m looking for it’s broad use as a self identification. I freely admit it has it’s roots in the 1800’s, and I admitted above the word was in some use all the way back through the 1400’s with similar meaning. Although it was mostly used against the church until the 1700s. It certainly isn’t just one among many. That was the problem the writers were trying to solve in the early 1900’s when they started identifying as Libertarian Communist/Socialist. They were unifying anarchism, council communism, workerism, and a few others. So the idea wasn’t to be one among many but to bring those ideas into a tent. That’s what was different about the 1890’s and the 1910’s. It went from a word getting thrown around to a specific ideological label.
I didn’t really mean you when I talked about people claiming moral superiority. I was just venting that people are trying to claim it was a coherent ideology contemporary to the very beginning of communism by twisting things around. I also don’t care that you took a day to respond, that just means you put real thought into a conversation that should have some real thought.
Okay, the disagreement on “originate” definition explains a lot of the misunderstanding. I still am convinced that ‘originates’ does not mean a clear and widely spread theory, but only a coherent one.
And to my eyes, having people calling themselves or other with the name of the theory, referring to all forms of communism opposed to authoritarianism as it is still today and was in the 20th, is coherent and probably more coherent than the socialism was for example.
Therefore I would claim that it was a coherent ideology contemporary to the second phase of communism (it did not exist at the very beginning of communism, before the communist manifesto and the communist ideas before, we can agree on that point. But it precisely emerged when tensions arised around the authoritarian part of first wide spread branch of communism which is marxism, this is what I called second phase, so starting around the first internationale).
Thanks a lot for your clear and constructive discussion, it feels very good to be able to pinpoint where the tension point is rather than just listing arguments in vain.
I think we have different standards for the start of an ideology. I’m looking for it’s broad use as a self identification. I freely admit it has it’s roots in the 1800’s, and I admitted above the word was in some use all the way back through the 1400’s with similar meaning. Although it was mostly used against the church until the 1700s. It certainly isn’t just one among many. That was the problem the writers were trying to solve in the early 1900’s when they started identifying as Libertarian Communist/Socialist. They were unifying anarchism, council communism, workerism, and a few others. So the idea wasn’t to be one among many but to bring those ideas into a tent. That’s what was different about the 1890’s and the 1910’s. It went from a word getting thrown around to a specific ideological label.
I didn’t really mean you when I talked about people claiming moral superiority. I was just venting that people are trying to claim it was a coherent ideology contemporary to the very beginning of communism by twisting things around. I also don’t care that you took a day to respond, that just means you put real thought into a conversation that should have some real thought.
Okay, the disagreement on “originate” definition explains a lot of the misunderstanding. I still am convinced that ‘originates’ does not mean a clear and widely spread theory, but only a coherent one. And to my eyes, having people calling themselves or other with the name of the theory, referring to all forms of communism opposed to authoritarianism as it is still today and was in the 20th, is coherent and probably more coherent than the socialism was for example.
Therefore I would claim that it was a coherent ideology contemporary to the second phase of communism (it did not exist at the very beginning of communism, before the communist manifesto and the communist ideas before, we can agree on that point. But it precisely emerged when tensions arised around the authoritarian part of first wide spread branch of communism which is marxism, this is what I called second phase, so starting around the first internationale).
Thanks a lot for your clear and constructive discussion, it feels very good to be able to pinpoint where the tension point is rather than just listing arguments in vain.
I agree this was much more like a friendly conversation over a beer, which is how I usually discuss political ideology.