Can someone educate me on this one? I understand people hate their jobs and would rather be doing something else, and maybe under socialism there are more opportunities to do stuff you enjoy, but there still is work to be done. Would the work not still have start times and end times throughout the week?
Like, ditch the shitty corporate job and make art or something fulfilling. But you’ll still have to go to work on Monday? (Okay, maybe art is a bad example because that would be more contract based and you’d work as needed, but the question still stands)
Since this meme mentions anarchism, I’ll take an anarcho-communist perspective. This is obviously an oversimplified idealistic view. There is so much variance in ideas for organisation, distribution, and association of labour in anarcho communist societies you could fill libraries with all the different sub movements.
A few reasons why in an anarcho-communist society, the concept of “hating Mondays” might not really apply at nearly the same extent it does in current capitalistic society:
Work life balance. the abolishment of capitalist structures, the focus would shift from profit to community well-being. Work would be more about contributing to the community rather than fulfilling corporate demands, leading to a more balanced and fulfilling daily routine.
Flexible Schedules. Anarcho-communism encourages self-management and collective decision-making, allowing people to create their own schedules. If Mondays are tough for someone, they could adjust their week to suit their needs without the rigid 9-to-5 grind.
Meaningful Work. The emphasis would be on work that is fulfilling and meaningful, rather than merely a means to survive. If people enjoy what they do and see its value in their community, the dread of returning to work on a Monday would likely diminish.
Community Support: In an anarcho-communist framework, community bonds would be strong. People would likely have better support systems, making transitions back to work easier and more enjoyable.
Lack of Hierarchical Pressure: Without hierarchical pressures and corporate stressors, the anxiety and negativity often associated with the start of the workweek would be significantly reduced. People would feel empowered to engage in their labor voluntarily and collaboratively.
So, instead of dreading Mondays, people might look forward to contributing to their communities in ways that align with their passions and values!
In a truly anarchist society with voluntary free association, you could even change your “commune” or move to somewhere that aligns more with your values.
Ah that makes sense! The anal nitpicky part of me would still say, “well, the feeling of Mondays would still be there in some cases.” But I understand the jist. Thanks!
Well there wouldn’t really be a monday. You work when you want to. Of course mechanisms such as peer pressure would push you towards contributing to your society. But the whole concept of the week and weekend wouldn’t necessarily exist in an anarchist society.
When someone profits from your labor, it’s in their interests to make sure that you labor as much as possible.
In a politically and economically egalitarian society, not only do you need to work fewer hours to meet your basic needs, but society as a whole will be much more interested in “the asymptotic abolition of work”, through investment in automation technology and other means.
Under capitalism there is significant conflict over automation (see the current discourse over AI, for example), since the benefits go primarily to the capitalists, who are willing to let everyone else starve if they can get away with it.
In a politically and economically egalitarian society
So, in a fantasy? It’s nice in theory, but such a society has never existed, and probably will never exist until humans are no longer recognizable as humans.
If you just want better, why not just aim for well regulated capitalism? That’s better than badly regulated capitalism, and it’s much easier to achieve than a brand new political and economic system that has yet to be tried.
It still sounds like capitalism to me. It’s just more traditional capitalism. I’m pretty sure that the first mechanical looms were in factories where the owner was actually present in the factory, trying to make sure the machines kept working.
I’d even argue that ownership of land isn’t really capitalism anyhow, it’s more similar to feudalism. Capitalism involves buying capital and using that to transform raw materials into a finished product that can be sold at a profit. Feudalism involves charging someone rent for occupying land you own. Capitalism involves competing with other capitalists for more efficient processes, more cost-effective machines, and so-on. Landlords can’t have “more efficient” land. A capitalist has to use their machines to generate profits. If the machines are idle, they don’t make money. A landlord does nothing at all, then collects rent money.
So yeah, ban rent, or severely limit it. Require that a capitalist owner is actually physically present and involved in day-to-day operations, and you’ll completely eliminate billionaires, probably even centi-millionaires.
The “still sounds like capitalism to me” part is the reason that I think it’s the most practical way forward. It makes a radically beneficial structural change, while still being easily understood by anyone that’s used to capitalism.
Socialists, generally speaking, want people to have ownership of their homes and workplaces. State socialists (think USSR-style) want this to be indirect, with the state owning everything on the behalf of the workers. Anarchists and other libertarian varieties of socialist want people to have this ownership directly, without the state as an intermediary. It’s in this sense that mutualism is a form of socialism.
I included land in the absentee ownership prohibition because it’s important for everyone to have somewhere they can exist without having to get permission. Whether one thinks of it as part of capitalism or not, the threat of homelessness (since all land is already owned) is part of what enforces our current economic hierarchy.
It makes a radically beneficial structural change, while still being easily understood by anyone that’s used to capitalism.
Yeah, that’s important. It also doesn’t require a revolution to attain, just reforms of the current system. Admittedly, reforming the current system would be hard, but theoretically it wouldn’t have to be bloody. I think some people who have never questioned the economic and political system in which they grew up can’t even conceive of anything other than capitalism. Other people who have thought about it would worry that any attempted revolution might fail and we’d fall backwards into something much more like feudalism if not outright tyranny.
it’s important for everyone to have somewhere they can exist without having to get permission
Yeah, as bad as Feudalism was, at least serfs couldn’t be kicked off “their” land. They were tied to the land, so they weren’t allowed to leave, but the manor lord also couldn’t kick them out.
As for all land being owned, it is, and it isn’t. In commonwealth countries there’s a lot of crown land. In the US there’s a lot of government owned land. In cities there are a lot of city parks. In a sense all that land is owned. But, in another sense, it isn’t. It’s land that nobody’s allowed to build anything on, unless we collectively (via our reps) decide they are. In practice it’s not that simple, but in theory it’s effectively land that isn’t owned, at least by individuals. I’ve often wondered what effect it would have on homelessness if there were land in cities where everybody was allowed to live if they wanted. I imagine it would basically end up as a favela. Not great, but probably better than homelessness.
To get rid of capitalism, you don’t have to abolish absentee ownership of capital. A worker coop can lease capital from third parties and remain a non-capitalist democratic worker coop. Abolishing capitalism just requires abolishing the employment contract and common ownership of land and natural resources. Without the employment contract, everyone is either individually or jointly self-employed, so every firm is a worker coop
I am a mutualist as well. I just use the term, economic democracy as David Ellerman calls it, instead because mutualism doesn’t seem as clear. Also, mutualism has anarchist connotations, which I am sympathetic to, but I believe the movement to abolish capitalism should be broader than anarchism.
Bakunin had said that everyone would be obliged to do manual work under socialism(I think I read that in Statism and Anarchy, don’t quote me on it, but it makes sense, someone has to do that, might as well all of us contribute), which is fair.
Also you can never get rid of logistics and factory related work imo, because concentrating the production means and scaling up factories is proven to be overwhelmingly more efficient in producing goods than producing them locally and independently. Producing flour in a big factory reduces the manual labour hours by tens and hundreds of times. So as I see it, these jobs will still be there.
The fundamental difference would be that people would actually work these jobs for like 2-3 hours every couple of days or so. This is because we have the capacity to cover everyone’s needs several times over, that’s how immensely huge our economy is. The west has to scale down a lot the economy cause we are producing way too much, that’s how much we produce. We would be able to cover our needs with so much less work than now.
Can someone educate me on this one? I understand people hate their jobs and would rather be doing something else, and maybe under socialism there are more opportunities to do stuff you enjoy, but there still is work to be done. Would the work not still have start times and end times throughout the week?
Like, ditch the shitty corporate job and make art or something fulfilling. But you’ll still have to go to work on Monday? (Okay, maybe art is a bad example because that would be more contract based and you’d work as needed, but the question still stands)
Since this meme mentions anarchism, I’ll take an anarcho-communist perspective. This is obviously an oversimplified idealistic view. There is so much variance in ideas for organisation, distribution, and association of labour in anarcho communist societies you could fill libraries with all the different sub movements.
A few reasons why in an anarcho-communist society, the concept of “hating Mondays” might not really apply at nearly the same extent it does in current capitalistic society:
So, instead of dreading Mondays, people might look forward to contributing to their communities in ways that align with their passions and values!
In a truly anarchist society with voluntary free association, you could even change your “commune” or move to somewhere that aligns more with your values.
Ah that makes sense! The anal nitpicky part of me would still say, “well, the feeling of Mondays would still be there in some cases.” But I understand the jist. Thanks!
Well there wouldn’t really be a monday. You work when you want to. Of course mechanisms such as peer pressure would push you towards contributing to your society. But the whole concept of the week and weekend wouldn’t necessarily exist in an anarchist society.
When someone profits from your labor, it’s in their interests to make sure that you labor as much as possible.
In a politically and economically egalitarian society, not only do you need to work fewer hours to meet your basic needs, but society as a whole will be much more interested in “the asymptotic abolition of work”, through investment in automation technology and other means.
Under capitalism there is significant conflict over automation (see the current discourse over AI, for example), since the benefits go primarily to the capitalists, who are willing to let everyone else starve if they can get away with it.
So, in a fantasy? It’s nice in theory, but such a society has never existed, and probably will never exist until humans are no longer recognizable as humans.
Doesn’t need to be perfect, just needs to be better.
If you just want better, why not just aim for well regulated capitalism? That’s better than badly regulated capitalism, and it’s much easier to achieve than a brand new political and economic system that has yet to be tried.
Sure, let’s “regulate” capitalism by outlawing absentee ownership of land and capital.
I would say that wouldn’t be capitalism anymore, but you can call it what you want.
It still sounds like capitalism to me. It’s just more traditional capitalism. I’m pretty sure that the first mechanical looms were in factories where the owner was actually present in the factory, trying to make sure the machines kept working.
I’d even argue that ownership of land isn’t really capitalism anyhow, it’s more similar to feudalism. Capitalism involves buying capital and using that to transform raw materials into a finished product that can be sold at a profit. Feudalism involves charging someone rent for occupying land you own. Capitalism involves competing with other capitalists for more efficient processes, more cost-effective machines, and so-on. Landlords can’t have “more efficient” land. A capitalist has to use their machines to generate profits. If the machines are idle, they don’t make money. A landlord does nothing at all, then collects rent money.
So yeah, ban rent, or severely limit it. Require that a capitalist owner is actually physically present and involved in day-to-day operations, and you’ll completely eliminate billionaires, probably even centi-millionaires.
I call it mutualism.
The “still sounds like capitalism to me” part is the reason that I think it’s the most practical way forward. It makes a radically beneficial structural change, while still being easily understood by anyone that’s used to capitalism.
Socialists, generally speaking, want people to have ownership of their homes and workplaces. State socialists (think USSR-style) want this to be indirect, with the state owning everything on the behalf of the workers. Anarchists and other libertarian varieties of socialist want people to have this ownership directly, without the state as an intermediary. It’s in this sense that mutualism is a form of socialism.
I included land in the absentee ownership prohibition because it’s important for everyone to have somewhere they can exist without having to get permission. Whether one thinks of it as part of capitalism or not, the threat of homelessness (since all land is already owned) is part of what enforces our current economic hierarchy.
Yeah, that’s important. It also doesn’t require a revolution to attain, just reforms of the current system. Admittedly, reforming the current system would be hard, but theoretically it wouldn’t have to be bloody. I think some people who have never questioned the economic and political system in which they grew up can’t even conceive of anything other than capitalism. Other people who have thought about it would worry that any attempted revolution might fail and we’d fall backwards into something much more like feudalism if not outright tyranny.
Yeah, as bad as Feudalism was, at least serfs couldn’t be kicked off “their” land. They were tied to the land, so they weren’t allowed to leave, but the manor lord also couldn’t kick them out.
As for all land being owned, it is, and it isn’t. In commonwealth countries there’s a lot of crown land. In the US there’s a lot of government owned land. In cities there are a lot of city parks. In a sense all that land is owned. But, in another sense, it isn’t. It’s land that nobody’s allowed to build anything on, unless we collectively (via our reps) decide they are. In practice it’s not that simple, but in theory it’s effectively land that isn’t owned, at least by individuals. I’ve often wondered what effect it would have on homelessness if there were land in cities where everybody was allowed to live if they wanted. I imagine it would basically end up as a favela. Not great, but probably better than homelessness.
I am an anti-capitalist.
To get rid of capitalism, you don’t have to abolish absentee ownership of capital. A worker coop can lease capital from third parties and remain a non-capitalist democratic worker coop. Abolishing capitalism just requires abolishing the employment contract and common ownership of land and natural resources. Without the employment contract, everyone is either individually or jointly self-employed, so every firm is a worker coop
@196
I prefer mutualism to Georgism, but I prefer either to capitalism. ¯\(ツ)/¯
I am a mutualist as well. I just use the term, economic democracy as David Ellerman calls it, instead because mutualism doesn’t seem as clear. Also, mutualism has anarchist connotations, which I am sympathetic to, but I believe the movement to abolish capitalism should be broader than anarchism.
In other words,
anarchist economic democracy = mutualism
@196
Bakunin had said that everyone would be obliged to do manual work under socialism(I think I read that in Statism and Anarchy, don’t quote me on it, but it makes sense, someone has to do that, might as well all of us contribute), which is fair.
Also you can never get rid of logistics and factory related work imo, because concentrating the production means and scaling up factories is proven to be overwhelmingly more efficient in producing goods than producing them locally and independently. Producing flour in a big factory reduces the manual labour hours by tens and hundreds of times. So as I see it, these jobs will still be there.
The fundamental difference would be that people would actually work these jobs for like 2-3 hours every couple of days or so. This is because we have the capacity to cover everyone’s needs several times over, that’s how immensely huge our economy is. The west has to scale down a lot the economy cause we are producing way too much, that’s how much we produce. We would be able to cover our needs with so much less work than now.