Non-vegan here - hello from All! Speaking only for myself ofc, but
Let’s explain that it’s delicious and healthy and potentially cheaper
Those are three very important factors in my food purchasing decision making.
better for the planet and animals.
[This is probably going to come off as confrontational, but please don’t take it that way - this is a perspective dump]
The planet’s fucked, and so is everything on it. Veganism is definitely a step toward mitigating that, but in the same sense that bailing water out of a sinking boat is… when that boat is the Titanic that recently snapped in half, and our bucket is just a bucket. Point being, environmental or animal-focused messaging isn’t really going to resonate with anyone who isn’t already on board with your argument.
I’ll eat a veggie burger or order from the vegan/vegetarian menu at restaurants: some of those foods are fucking delicious. But I don’t really care that it’s an alternative to beef; I care that it’s a better product than beef.
THAT SAID, I work around around a lot of rednecks who are comically offended by just the concept of veganism, so, I’d vote to keep at least some of the abrasive stuff just cuz I love to see them squirm, lol.
But if the goal is to bring folks into your movement, you’ll have better luck targeting our wallets and tastebuds.
But if the goal is to bring folks into your movement, you’ll have better luck targeting our wallets and tastebuds.
You probably didn’t mean it that way, but that’s an arrogant statement.
Veganism is an animal rights movement. In what other rights movement would you accept that the rights-breakers say: “you have to do x and y before we even think about recognizing these rights”.
“Cheap and tasty” has no ethical weight. That doesn’t mean that people won’t “treat themselves” to something animal derived. And what if there are animal products that are even cheaper and tastier?
What about things where taste doesn’t matter such as leather, fur, wool, silk, beeswax, horn, pearl, gelatine, collagen, keratin, make-up, soap, washing powder, cleaning products, zoos, circuses, animal testing, bull and dog fighting, recreational fishing and hunting etc.?
[Edit - holy shit this post was redundant. I apologize to anyone who suffered through that word salad. I need to quit posting shit when I’m sleep deprived. Did a bit of housekeeping on this post.]
A successful argument isn’t so much about the quality of a point being argued as it is its ability to change the behavior of the person you’re arguing with. So, a really really good point only holds value as an argument if it resonates with target. Animal rights, taste, cost, etc are all tools at your disposal in these kinds of debates: you’ll need to use those tools strategically as they apply not to you, but the person you’re talking to.
And to answer your question: pretty much all of them. Look at any controversy and side A will argue ferociously using points that don’t align with side B’s values, so we just spend a bunch of energy bashing heads, and ultimately accomplish nothing. Leverage side B’s values. As an unrelated example, abortion: I’m very pro choice, but when I’m debating a pro-lifer there are points that I’ll steer away from like women’s autonomy - not because they aren’t good points, but because I know the pro-lifers will not give a shit about that, so they aren’t good arguments. Data on intrauterine fetal death rates vs maternal death rates in states that do vs don’t allow abortions will carry a lot more weight to a crowd that pretends to be about ‘life’.
The technique is called “steelmanning” (basically the opposite of a straw man argument), and it works pretty well, but does require getting into the other side’s perspective and using it as ammo.
When you’re struggling to make ends meet, you’re not going to care about much else besides surviving the next day. Lowering your (and your loved ones’) chances of survival for the benefits of others is a hard sell. Whether you accept it or not, that’s the reality.
I wouldn’t see it as black and white. I agree that significant damage is done already. But not in a way that humanity will go extinct within the next decades. I guess the human species - thanks to technology - is highly adaptable to changing conditions. BUT every tiny change in the direction of ‘the planet’s fucked’ will make it less livable. Extreme weather conditions occur more and more, we will have more desertification, more pandemics, draughts, famines etc. And these are only the direct effects of climate change. If living conditions worsen, there’ll be more economic issues, more migration, more wars.
Earth currently provides ressources for about 8 billion humans. If we don’t take measures to combat climate change this number will decrease and so will the quality of life for all remaining humans and animals. And every tiny measure helps. Every single vegan, vegeterian, flexitarian, less travel etc. has an impact.
The earth is not a sunken ship.
Point being, environmental or animal-focused messaging isn’t really going to resonate with anyone who isn’t already on board with your argument.
I agree. Everyone has a different moral compass and different priorities.
But I don’t really care that it’s an alternative to beef; I care that it’s a better product than beef.
I appreciate that you’re as open minded to try out new alternatives and I’m happy you liked them. Even if animal rights aren’t a top priority on your list: why not giving it a try? Veganism is a significant restriction to an omnivores diet. But as in art, restrictions can boost creativity. It can open you a full new world of recipes, products in the supermarket you never noticed, new restaurants you never visited etc. In addition to all the objectively positive aspects aspects such as health, money etc. - maybe you just like it!? And if you like it, why not take the animal- and earth-friendlyness as a nice side-effect?
I work around around a lot of rednecks who are comically offended by just the concept of veganism, so, I’d vote to keep at least some of the abrasive stuff
I’d prefer to have 'em on board. ;)
And I guess there are also good ‘redneck reasons’ for veganism. With plant-based food, it’s much easier to make your country independent from imports. You need less water to produce field fruits than to raise animals and water is becoming a scarce ressource in many redneck regions today. With the same area for agriculture you can produce a much higher output. Or - if you don’t need as much output - you can lower the amount of fertilizer, pesticides etc. and thereby again making yourself more independent from your supply chain. Production of plants is far less regulated, less bureaucracy.
And additionally, I’d argue that also the vast majority of rednecks does not like working in a slaughterhouse or a feedlot. So if we as a society have a chance to get rid of these jobs why not do it?
^THAT is what I’m talking about! That’s the style of debate that can get folks on board with the lifestyle even if they don’t actually care about the values.
And to be completely transparent, I kind of went off the rails with my first post here - intention was to just throw some support at your first post based on the categories you listed… but I did kinda transition from my own personal take to using myself as a megaphone for nonvegan (but not antivegan) takes in general, which I guess kinda threw that second sentence right in the trash, didn’t it?
[tldr on the following two paragraphs: dooming. Feel free to skip em if you’re not interested in the details.]
I do feel pretty defeatist about the climate. When I say it’s fucked, I don’t necessarily mean right this second; I mean humans don’t have it in us to make the changes necessary to fix it. The changes that need to happen need to be coming from the top, but relying on world leaders and the ultrawealthy to lead by example is a death sentence. A vegan lifestyle is DEFINITELY a step in the right direction - no argument there - but it’s not just the spiel about an individual contribution not making a difference, it’s that entire cities switching over wouldn’t make a difference because that’s all at direct odds with the climate impact of like a single billionaire. Then you look at absolute shit show that is politics. I live in the US, and I kind of expected to get fucked by electoral college or some kind of bullshit that we could have been mad about but ultimately out of our control… what happened is so much worse. We didn’t (just) get fucked by a bad system, we got fucked by our own neighbors: turns out the majority of Americans are either Nazis or okay enough with Nazis that they couldn’t be bothered to lift a fucking finger in opposition. I’m getting way off topic, but the point is I find it impossible to cling on to a positive climate outlook when we’re still struggling with questions like “Should women have rights?” “Do trans people deserve to live?” …honestly I’m struggling to cope with that. My world view used to boil down to collectively people were good, but manipulated by a concentration of evil people who gravitate to positions of power. Now? Opposite - we have small concentrations of good, but collectively people are evil, with the worst of the worst concentrating in those positions of power.
And I hate to come off as a coldhearted bastard regarding things like animal rights; but I do put those on the backburner against things like human rights or setting our planet on fire. If we can’t even agree to be good to eachother, what hope is there in being good to anything else, to include animals? It’s not that animals don’t deserve to live their lives in peace, I just don’t see even the tiniest flicker of hope in us having what it takes to make that happen.
I need therapy.
And probably drugs.
Dooming aside, I’m on board with your other points. Especially the new recipes bit - pretty much any time I consciously go for vegan options, it’s in a setting where I’m relying on someone else’s skill to make it into something that’s actually interesting to eat. I’m not a very creative cook, but I can follow instructions - any recommendations? If nothing else, that could provide some good ol’ escapism, and like you mentioned, there’s certainly no harm in nudging the planet in a positive direction.
I get you. In face of developments in society and politics, it can be hard to stay hopeful.
I think the underlying issue of all that is that humans are still genetically programmed to life in caves, in loose tribes with a couple dozens of people and dealing only with fundamental issues that are easily overseable. Hungry? Kill mammoth. Horny? Bunga bunga. That’s it.
Our success of our species as a whole outperformed the capability of us individuals to understand the world we live in. With globalization and technologilization everything is connected now. No problem can be seen isolated. And despite having access to vast amount of information, no one is capable to oversee a process and connect ends.
Being overwhelved by this insane complexity people surrender. People are confused. People are frustrated. People turn ignorant. They are looking for meaning, for simple answers. Some people find these easy answers in populism. From my perspective, that’s why people decide that voting for Trump might not be that bad. Even if they don’t agree on everything he says, they at least understand the agenda. Blaming others psychologically can be great excuse for your own misery. It’s not my fault, it’s theirs. Thus, I don’t have to change / learn / invest / work on myself to improve my or everyone else’s situation.
On top of that I think that society has a contagious aspect. If so many people vote for Trump, it can’t be that wrong. To mimic what your successful neighbors do was an incredible benefit to our ancestors. Trump is a racist asshole that’s lying all day long. Yet, he’s super rich and made it to the president. Capitalism incentivises selfishness. The more you exploit others, the bigger your own piece of cake. People admire the rich and popular for their fancy lifestyle and strive for similar success.
In contrast, leftists and leftist talking points often appear weak. The poor asking for welfare. The weak minoroties asking for equal rights, vegans demanding to restrict your diet for animals that can’t protect themselves, environmentalists vowing to stop travel, to go shopping…
Furthermore, leftist movements are often overly critical towards themselves and their potential supporters. Oh, you went vegetarian but still eating cheese? Murderer! Oh, you stopped international flights but still drive a car to get to work? Still just as bad of a person!
So, based on the capitalist definition of success, leftists are and make themselves the ‘losers of society’.
If you’re seeking orientation in life because you’re unhappy with your situation - whom do you chose as your role model? The successful where you just need a bumper sticker and chant some paroles or the losers that might be shitting on you for not being perfect?
From my perspective, the first step to change the world, is to redefine success. We must allow us to be successful, because we are fucking programmmed to be successful! Let’s appreciate small changes in the right direction, let’s praise people for trying, even if they fail or still can do better. And let’s apply this to everyone, no matter how far away someone seems to be away from our ideals. Hell, if you see your hardcore redneck neighbor eating an apple from his tree, try to turn it into a success for him. Because success will motivate him to keep going.
I’m not a very creative cook, but I can follow instructions - any recommendations?
I barely ever use recipes but mostly cook spontaneously. I would just pick a random dish you may like and give it a try, maybe a soy & beans chili? A coconut curry with tofu? Home home made croquettes or patties from oat/quinoa/cous cous? A lentil bowl? Instead of going dish by dish, you can also try to buy one completely new vegan ingredient every time you go to the store.
If you indeed give it try, try not to see as cutting back. Cutting back sucks. Every shopping trip, every restaurant visit, every meal can be micro challenge to succeed in. You can even combine multiple challenges: meal should be vegan, contain at least 40g of protein, at least 3 different protein sources, have 4 different colors, use a completely new spice… All of these achieved but turns out to taste like shit? Barely ever happens but even if that’s still a 5/6 success. ;)
I contrast to many others in the vegan community, I think veganism takes time. Time to get to know new products, train your tastebuds, learn new recipes, new styles of cooking. If I would have went straight full blown vegan, it would have been a shitty experience for me. I went veggie for two years, then step-by-step stopped buying eggs, milk, butter as ingredients and at some point stopped buying products that contained any animal stuff.
Your journey might be faster, slower or completely different, but make sure it’s your personal success story towards the target of a better world. :)
Non-vegan here - hello from All! Speaking only for myself ofc, but
Those are three very important factors in my food purchasing decision making.
[This is probably going to come off as confrontational, but please don’t take it that way - this is a perspective dump]
The planet’s fucked, and so is everything on it. Veganism is definitely a step toward mitigating that, but in the same sense that bailing water out of a sinking boat is… when that boat is the Titanic that recently snapped in half, and our bucket is just a bucket. Point being, environmental or animal-focused messaging isn’t really going to resonate with anyone who isn’t already on board with your argument.
I’ll eat a veggie burger or order from the vegan/vegetarian menu at restaurants: some of those foods are fucking delicious. But I don’t really care that it’s an alternative to beef; I care that it’s a better product than beef.
THAT SAID, I work around around a lot of rednecks who are comically offended by just the concept of veganism, so, I’d vote to keep at least some of the abrasive stuff just cuz I love to see them squirm, lol.
But if the goal is to bring folks into your movement, you’ll have better luck targeting our wallets and tastebuds.
You probably didn’t mean it that way, but that’s an arrogant statement.
Veganism is an animal rights movement. In what other rights movement would you accept that the rights-breakers say: “you have to do x and y before we even think about recognizing these rights”.
“Cheap and tasty” has no ethical weight. That doesn’t mean that people won’t “treat themselves” to something animal derived. And what if there are animal products that are even cheaper and tastier?
What about things where taste doesn’t matter such as leather, fur, wool, silk, beeswax, horn, pearl, gelatine, collagen, keratin, make-up, soap, washing powder, cleaning products, zoos, circuses, animal testing, bull and dog fighting, recreational fishing and hunting etc.?
[Edit - holy shit this post was redundant. I apologize to anyone who suffered through that word salad. I need to quit posting shit when I’m sleep deprived. Did a bit of housekeeping on this post.]
A successful argument isn’t so much about the quality of a point being argued as it is its ability to change the behavior of the person you’re arguing with. So, a really really good point only holds value as an argument if it resonates with target. Animal rights, taste, cost, etc are all tools at your disposal in these kinds of debates: you’ll need to use those tools strategically as they apply not to you, but the person you’re talking to.
And to answer your question: pretty much all of them. Look at any controversy and side A will argue ferociously using points that don’t align with side B’s values, so we just spend a bunch of energy bashing heads, and ultimately accomplish nothing. Leverage side B’s values. As an unrelated example, abortion: I’m very pro choice, but when I’m debating a pro-lifer there are points that I’ll steer away from like women’s autonomy - not because they aren’t good points, but because I know the pro-lifers will not give a shit about that, so they aren’t good arguments. Data on intrauterine fetal death rates vs maternal death rates in states that do vs don’t allow abortions will carry a lot more weight to a crowd that pretends to be about ‘life’.
The technique is called “steelmanning” (basically the opposite of a straw man argument), and it works pretty well, but does require getting into the other side’s perspective and using it as ammo.
When you’re struggling to make ends meet, you’re not going to care about much else besides surviving the next day. Lowering your (and your loved ones’) chances of survival for the benefits of others is a hard sell. Whether you accept it or not, that’s the reality.
I agree. Rice, lentils, potatoes, oats, beans, pasta, tofu, etc. are among the cheapest items you can get.
I wouldn’t see it as black and white. I agree that significant damage is done already. But not in a way that humanity will go extinct within the next decades. I guess the human species - thanks to technology - is highly adaptable to changing conditions. BUT every tiny change in the direction of ‘the planet’s fucked’ will make it less livable. Extreme weather conditions occur more and more, we will have more desertification, more pandemics, draughts, famines etc. And these are only the direct effects of climate change. If living conditions worsen, there’ll be more economic issues, more migration, more wars.
Earth currently provides ressources for about 8 billion humans. If we don’t take measures to combat climate change this number will decrease and so will the quality of life for all remaining humans and animals. And every tiny measure helps. Every single vegan, vegeterian, flexitarian, less travel etc. has an impact.
The earth is not a sunken ship.
I agree. Everyone has a different moral compass and different priorities.
I appreciate that you’re as open minded to try out new alternatives and I’m happy you liked them. Even if animal rights aren’t a top priority on your list: why not giving it a try? Veganism is a significant restriction to an omnivores diet. But as in art, restrictions can boost creativity. It can open you a full new world of recipes, products in the supermarket you never noticed, new restaurants you never visited etc. In addition to all the objectively positive aspects aspects such as health, money etc. - maybe you just like it!? And if you like it, why not take the animal- and earth-friendlyness as a nice side-effect?
I’d prefer to have 'em on board. ;)
And I guess there are also good ‘redneck reasons’ for veganism. With plant-based food, it’s much easier to make your country independent from imports. You need less water to produce field fruits than to raise animals and water is becoming a scarce ressource in many redneck regions today. With the same area for agriculture you can produce a much higher output. Or - if you don’t need as much output - you can lower the amount of fertilizer, pesticides etc. and thereby again making yourself more independent from your supply chain. Production of plants is far less regulated, less bureaucracy.
And additionally, I’d argue that also the vast majority of rednecks does not like working in a slaughterhouse or a feedlot. So if we as a society have a chance to get rid of these jobs why not do it?
^THAT is what I’m talking about! That’s the style of debate that can get folks on board with the lifestyle even if they don’t actually care about the values.
And to be completely transparent, I kind of went off the rails with my first post here - intention was to just throw some support at your first post based on the categories you listed… but I did kinda transition from my own personal take to using myself as a megaphone for nonvegan (but not antivegan) takes in general, which I guess kinda threw that second sentence right in the trash, didn’t it?
[tldr on the following two paragraphs: dooming. Feel free to skip em if you’re not interested in the details.]
I do feel pretty defeatist about the climate. When I say it’s fucked, I don’t necessarily mean right this second; I mean humans don’t have it in us to make the changes necessary to fix it. The changes that need to happen need to be coming from the top, but relying on world leaders and the ultrawealthy to lead by example is a death sentence. A vegan lifestyle is DEFINITELY a step in the right direction - no argument there - but it’s not just the spiel about an individual contribution not making a difference, it’s that entire cities switching over wouldn’t make a difference because that’s all at direct odds with the climate impact of like a single billionaire. Then you look at absolute shit show that is politics. I live in the US, and I kind of expected to get fucked by electoral college or some kind of bullshit that we could have been mad about but ultimately out of our control… what happened is so much worse. We didn’t (just) get fucked by a bad system, we got fucked by our own neighbors: turns out the majority of Americans are either Nazis or okay enough with Nazis that they couldn’t be bothered to lift a fucking finger in opposition. I’m getting way off topic, but the point is I find it impossible to cling on to a positive climate outlook when we’re still struggling with questions like “Should women have rights?” “Do trans people deserve to live?” …honestly I’m struggling to cope with that. My world view used to boil down to collectively people were good, but manipulated by a concentration of evil people who gravitate to positions of power. Now? Opposite - we have small concentrations of good, but collectively people are evil, with the worst of the worst concentrating in those positions of power.
And I hate to come off as a coldhearted bastard regarding things like animal rights; but I do put those on the backburner against things like human rights or setting our planet on fire. If we can’t even agree to be good to eachother, what hope is there in being good to anything else, to include animals? It’s not that animals don’t deserve to live their lives in peace, I just don’t see even the tiniest flicker of hope in us having what it takes to make that happen.
I need therapy.
And probably drugs.
Dooming aside, I’m on board with your other points. Especially the new recipes bit - pretty much any time I consciously go for vegan options, it’s in a setting where I’m relying on someone else’s skill to make it into something that’s actually interesting to eat. I’m not a very creative cook, but I can follow instructions - any recommendations? If nothing else, that could provide some good ol’ escapism, and like you mentioned, there’s certainly no harm in nudging the planet in a positive direction.
I get you. In face of developments in society and politics, it can be hard to stay hopeful.
I think the underlying issue of all that is that humans are still genetically programmed to life in caves, in loose tribes with a couple dozens of people and dealing only with fundamental issues that are easily overseable. Hungry? Kill mammoth. Horny? Bunga bunga. That’s it.
Our success of our species as a whole outperformed the capability of us individuals to understand the world we live in. With globalization and technologilization everything is connected now. No problem can be seen isolated. And despite having access to vast amount of information, no one is capable to oversee a process and connect ends.
Being overwhelved by this insane complexity people surrender. People are confused. People are frustrated. People turn ignorant. They are looking for meaning, for simple answers. Some people find these easy answers in populism. From my perspective, that’s why people decide that voting for Trump might not be that bad. Even if they don’t agree on everything he says, they at least understand the agenda. Blaming others psychologically can be great excuse for your own misery. It’s not my fault, it’s theirs. Thus, I don’t have to change / learn / invest / work on myself to improve my or everyone else’s situation.
On top of that I think that society has a contagious aspect. If so many people vote for Trump, it can’t be that wrong. To mimic what your successful neighbors do was an incredible benefit to our ancestors. Trump is a racist asshole that’s lying all day long. Yet, he’s super rich and made it to the president. Capitalism incentivises selfishness. The more you exploit others, the bigger your own piece of cake. People admire the rich and popular for their fancy lifestyle and strive for similar success.
In contrast, leftists and leftist talking points often appear weak. The poor asking for welfare. The weak minoroties asking for equal rights, vegans demanding to restrict your diet for animals that can’t protect themselves, environmentalists vowing to stop travel, to go shopping…
Furthermore, leftist movements are often overly critical towards themselves and their potential supporters. Oh, you went vegetarian but still eating cheese? Murderer! Oh, you stopped international flights but still drive a car to get to work? Still just as bad of a person!
So, based on the capitalist definition of success, leftists are and make themselves the ‘losers of society’.
If you’re seeking orientation in life because you’re unhappy with your situation - whom do you chose as your role model? The successful where you just need a bumper sticker and chant some paroles or the losers that might be shitting on you for not being perfect?
From my perspective, the first step to change the world, is to redefine success. We must allow us to be successful, because we are fucking programmmed to be successful! Let’s appreciate small changes in the right direction, let’s praise people for trying, even if they fail or still can do better. And let’s apply this to everyone, no matter how far away someone seems to be away from our ideals. Hell, if you see your hardcore redneck neighbor eating an apple from his tree, try to turn it into a success for him. Because success will motivate him to keep going.
If you indeed give it try, try not to see as cutting back. Cutting back sucks. Every shopping trip, every restaurant visit, every meal can be micro challenge to succeed in. You can even combine multiple challenges: meal should be vegan, contain at least 40g of protein, at least 3 different protein sources, have 4 different colors, use a completely new spice… All of these achieved but turns out to taste like shit? Barely ever happens but even if that’s still a 5/6 success. ;)
I contrast to many others in the vegan community, I think veganism takes time. Time to get to know new products, train your tastebuds, learn new recipes, new styles of cooking. If I would have went straight full blown vegan, it would have been a shitty experience for me. I went veggie for two years, then step-by-step stopped buying eggs, milk, butter as ingredients and at some point stopped buying products that contained any animal stuff.
Your journey might be faster, slower or completely different, but make sure it’s your personal success story towards the target of a better world. :)