- cross-posted to:
- games@sh.itjust.works
- cross-posted to:
- games@sh.itjust.works
A patent filed by Nintendo suggests that they’re working on Hall Effect style joysticks for the Switch 2 that would eliminate stick drift almost entirely.
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Joycon drift, and all other thumbstick drift, is already a solved problem.
- Use bushings that actually have some abrasive resistance and aren’t softer than a fingernail.
- Use a non-contact based sensor to determine the XY position of the stick. Hall effect, optical, strain gauge, whatever, we’ve had the tech for 50 years.
The reason why they haven’t done this is one very simple reason: $$$
Isn’t the N64 controllers using optical sensor and those are one of the worst controller ever existed?
N64 does use optical sensors, the n64 stick is actually super precise and doesn’t suffer from drift. The n64 is a goofy controller but it is simply a great and accurate input device, and a lot of the games were really designed with that stick and notches in mind.
But it is made of all plastic and features plastic on plastic moving parts, without lubrication, so it suffers from wear of the plastic. Worn n64 sticks will actually be filled with plastic dust from the stick and gears literally sanding themselves down. The only problem with the controller is the premature wear of the stick.
It’s crazy to me that no company ever made a decent 3rd party N64 controller. The 3rd party ones were all as ridiculous as the defaults. Great console that I loved, but would have gotten a lot more out of with better controllers.
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The Hori Pad Mini? I had never seen that before, leagues above anything I remember being available at the time. The other looks amazing, definitely a modern controller that I would have killed for back then.
If you’re willing to pay big bucks you can you can pay for replacement parts/module made with steel
The sensors on the N64 are basically the same kind you’d find in a mouse wheel. They work fine.
The crap part is the physical construction. There’s a lot of parts that wear down with use and cause the joystick to become loose due to the plastics wearing away.
N64’s issues came from the bushings wearing out, the sensors were still very good
Primarily the plastic bowl
Yup. If they’d just made the bowl out of something OTHER than ABS, they would have been good. Delrin, PTFE, even a thin layer of brass or broze, and those controllers wouldn’t have had anywhere near the amount of issues they’re known for having.
There are third-party manufacturers who sell replacement bowls and sticks, made from everything from POM to steel.
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I’ll believe it when I see it. Nintendo are cheap bastards, and if they fix the drift issue then they’ll likely cause it to fail prematurely somewhere else. Maybe the rubber will be cheaper so that it wears down and has to be replaced anyways? Or the plastic will be thinner so it cracks sooner, etc.
Also if they wanted to fix it for their next console, then they could have fixed it for this console. Hall effect isn’t some new technology, the dreamcast controller had it.
I’m betting on sticky buttons or triggers.
Nintendo deserves class action here tbh.
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Glancing over the patent, I don’t think Hall effect sensors are used here. Note especially the use of a fluid, and the presence of variable resistors (parts that can wear out in current-gen controllers) for each axis.
Instead, this looks like an analog stick force-feedback mechanism that could also be used for automatic re-centering:
Accordingly, in the first example, control of current to be applied to the MRF is performed in the way as described below, thus achieving both presentation of a feeling using the MRF and an initial position restoration operation.
This wouldn’t keep the potentiometers from wearing out, but with the right software, I imagine it could automatically adjust the sticks to compensate for mild drift. (I don’t know if this would work any better than plain old calibration; it’s definitely more complicated.) Also, games could dynamically adjust stick resistance, like the DualSense can adjust trigger resistance, for interactivity/immersion.
I wonder how much this would affect battery life, how long the fluid mechanism would last with normal wear and tear, and how environmentally toxic it will be when it eventually becomes e-waste.
The PDF linked in the article seems to be a scanned image, so control+F doesn’t work, but the text is searchable here: https://patents.justia.com/patent/20230280850
Whoa, that force feedback mechanism sounds really cool! It might not be able to force movement but it would provide resistance to movement. I could imagine it as if your player character is walking into a wall and the joystick wont let you push forward.
Title seems odd, hall effects already exist, they aren’t creating something new. Also, love my DS5 to death, best controller I’ve ever used.
I think it’s saying a patent about hall effect sensors specifically relating to Nintendo and Switch style implementations. Obviously it’s not for the concept at large that’s been around for decades.
I loved my Dualsense too, and then the left stick started drifting so badly, it’s completely unusable now. It’s only about a year old, too. I blame Sekiro. Both my DS4s still work fine though, and they’ve seen much more use and abuse.
Ps5 controller was just as bad… I’m on my 3rd now and most of my friends are on their 2nd. I also had 1 switch controller go bad as well, but I also don’t play switch as much. This entire generation had the best controllers but also the worst problems I have ever had. Prior to these 2 systems I have never had a controller break before and I’m going back to original NES days.
I was talking about the PS5 controller. My DS4s (the PS4 controller) are holding up much better. At least the internals. The rubber on the sticks wore off, and I had to replace the tops. That was much easier than the 14 contacts-per-stick I have to de-and-re-solder on the Dualsense (PS5 controller) when I work up the courage to try that.
You don’t have to dodge in Sekiro, just stand there and parry everything.
True, but you still do a lot of moving around with the left stick. And when you’re stressed out about imminent death at any moment, that can be hard on the sticks.
I loved Sekiro! My first time through the game, I probably died on that first miniboss a hundred times. On NG+, I got to and killed Lady Butterfly without dying once. What an amazing game. I should probably go back and finish up NG+ once Elden Ring lets go of me.
I loved my Dualsense too, and then the left stick started drifting so badly, it’s completely unusable now. It’s only about a year old, too
I really think that something changed with a major potentiometer manufacturer in the past few years. I don’t recall stick drift on a PS2 controller that I used for many years, but I’ve seen it on a number of controllers from different vendors recently.
Only thing I can think of other than recent hardware problems is that maybe the controller hardware imposed a certain amount of deadzone at one point in time and stopped doing so in newer gamepads, and that masked the drift.
I really think that something changed with a major potentiometer manufacturer in the past few years.
I’ve heard a lot of hearsay that that is the case. Tech savvy people have taken apart some sticks and say that analog stick quality has taken a nosedive in recent years. Maybe it is just the effect of this sort of thing being discussed on the Internet more often, but I don’t doubt the veracity. I’ve had a few older controllers that I retired because of external wear whose internals were totally fine. Seems like controllers like Dualsense and particularly Switch Joycons are just poorly made.
I fixed my drift with a small piece of cardboard. I figure Nintendo could have eliminated some drift by increasing the material thickness in the cad file they use. They just choose not to.
Two things I notice
would eliminate stick drift almost entirely
I thought Hall effect sensors didn’t drift at all?
Second, I’m wondering what exactly Nintendo is patenting here, since Hall effect sensors are nothing new.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure they would not be able to patent Hall effect sensors. About a zillion other vendors would be able to claim prior art, especially considering they’ve been a commercial product for precisely this application for literal decades. The Gravis Stinger leaps to mind, which is so damn old it connects to a 9 pin serial port.
Nintendo is either dumb (unlikely) or doing something different (more likely).
They don’t get sensor drift, but if the mechanical centering of the stick is sub par, you can get mechanical drift. The N64 is a good example. Flawless sensors, shitty mechanical construction
Yeah?!?! You think so huh? I’m holding my breath on this one and keeping my interests in other game pads like ASUS ROG one, or the one that Logitech is making
I guess they finally found a cheap supplier for magnets so they can save that on what additional whopping 5 cents per stick production cost.
I have had this problem like 3 times, I have sent my joycons for repair and I always get new ones. Not sure how Nintendo is making money out of this.
I had to replace my original sticks this year because they finally started to drift after five years or so.
I now have some Hall Effect sticks in each side, and I haven’t had any problems in the last six months with them. I really hope they go this route for the switch 2. It makes a lot of sense for them to, as well. They wouldn’t have to deal with fixing as many, and consumers would get a better product. Could be a rare win for both parties when I’m sure there’s some bean counters going “but if the controllers break more often we can sell more controllers!”
Could be a rare win for both parties when I’m sure there’s some bean counters going “but if the controllers break more often we can sell more controllers!”
Hopefully a class-action wipes off all profits gained from that way of thinking.
Unfortunately not. Planned obsolescence fuckery is the norm now, not the exception.
At least one class-action going ahead so far.
https://montreal.citynews.ca/2023/07/20/nintendo-joy-con-controller-lawsuit/
Yeah, but that’s in Canada. Unlike the US, they don’t let companies get away with LITERALLY everything yet. Good on them for staying sane on top of the asylum though…
What is Hall Effect?
It’s a way to detect which way the stick is pointing using magnets. It’s way more accurate and incredibly reliable.
Also because the moving parts don’t actually make contact with the sensors, the wear issues that affect joycons basically don’t exist
HI! My son just received a Nintendo Switch for Xmas. Would you mint telling me more about those Hall Effect stick i.e., brand/model? It’d be interesting to know hot to get them “just in case”. Thanks a lot in advance!
Hello! I just remembered your message.
Here’s an article about the ones I bought (though I bought them through another site besides Amazon because I’m not an Amazon fan.
Anyway, the process is pretty easy, though there are some smallish cables to be careful about.
Hey, thanks a lot. I’m not an Amazon fan as well, so I’d buy them elsewhere when/if needed.
Switch drift was so bad, im not getting the new switch unless it goes months without drift reports first.
I upgraded my joycons to the guilykit joysticks and they are wonderful. And its not even that difficult. Took me about 30 minutes for both. But it’s a shame that I had to change them at all.
Do Amiibos still work with the new sticks?
The NFC reader isn’t on the sticks, so I don’t see why they wouldn’t.
I thought they were, since you touch the stick with it.
It’s actually around the stick, not in. Check a right joycon teardown, you’ll see the antenna stuck to the inside of the shell.
Yes.
Man if they did a DualSense style controller with the solid l/r1 and a touchpad for htpc use I’d be all over it.
I might just get one anyway as a backup but they’re really close to the ultimate controller with the kingkong
You missed this https://www.gulikit.com/productinfo/945307.html
I installed these on my wife’s joycons because she mashes the sticks like Gail the Snail. So far no issues with drift! The kit comes with all the tools you need to do the swap so it’s very straightforward.
I lost four sets of Joycon to drift. I even sent two in to be “repaired”. Talking to support was worthless - I’m convinced that the people I spoke to had never seen or used a Switch before. I don’t think they did anything other than calibrate them and send them back. I ended up buying a 20 pair of knockoff Joycon that have worked perfectly ever since.
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Why, though? Let them fix it, if they’re selling broken. Especially here in Europe they have to fix it within a mandatory 2-year warranty.
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It’s 3 year in Spain, since Jan 2022 (just adding info).
A bunch of controllers have extremely obnoxious security bits required. I had to get two separate bit sets to open a bunch of controllers.
what brand?
My old Amazon order says Vivefox, but they don’t seem to be for sale anymore. I’m pretty sure at the time there were a bunch of companies offering the same ones, like a Chinese dropship kind of thing.
Oh, you mean the problem they refused to acknowledge that was very common for a number of years? I wish I could get a refund or replacement on my 3 OFFICIAL NINTENDO controllers that suffer from drift. But alas, I don’t live where they do business “legally”
does the switch pro controller use different joysticks than the joycons?
my joycons have drift but the pro controller, which I’ve used more often, is perfectly fine
No, it’s just vastly larger so the copper contact strips are also larger and wear slower.
I bought a pro controller and it had drift out of the box, sent it back immediately and just got a third party Hori controller for half the price
The technology is fundamentally the same but they are implemented differently. They joycon has less space so they needed a more compact layout. But both use potentiometers.
