a) it’s effective and b) I think it’s important with conspiracy theorizing that instead of simply asking yourself whether or not you think it’s likely that someone is lying to you, you need to ask yourself what their motivation would be and how much effort would be required to achieve that result, THEN decide how likely it is that you are being lied to. I think the primary failing of a lot of conspiracy theorists is not that they think they’re being lied to in general, but that they neglect to do those important first steps towards creating the hypothesis. Unfortunately the actual testing is going to mostly be watching and waiting.
Reconstructed text from a screenshot of a reddit comment by u/Haliax:
4th year med student reporting in.
Had a rotation with a pediatrician where we ended up in the classic encounter with an anti-vaccination parent.
This lady was a conspiracy theory magnet. She casually mentioned everything from 9/11 to chemtrails. Of course she loved the idea of the vaccine conspiracy as well, opting to not protect her one year old to stick it to big pharma.
I relayed all of this to my attending after my exam (I would see the patient first, gather history and do my exam to present to my attending physician). He got this sort of lazy smirk on his face that screamed “watch this”.
We go back into the exam room and we cover all of the important bits of a well-child encounter. Growth charts, behavioral milestones, nutrition, sleep…
And then we get to vaccines. She lists approximately 15 reasons why vaccines are more dangerous than the disease they protect against (lol) in addition to the various evils of the pharmaceutical industry.
My attending listens quietly until she’s done with her soapbox (about one eternity later), and then interjects with: “Have you considered the possibility that anti-vaccine propaganda could be an attempt by the Russians or the Chinese to weaken the health of the United States population?”
In a moment of catastrophic cognitive dissonance, I swear I heard a strange popping noise as her brain misfired. It actually broke her. The allure of the increasingly ridiculous conspiracy theory was just too strong.
She ended up agreeing to a modified vaccine schedule. I was flabbergasted. My attending just grinned at me in response. To this day I’m not sure the medical ethics of the situation are totally palatable, but goddamn the result was amazing.
EDIT: Thanks for the internet points, remember folks, it’s all for the kids.
Edit: The most frustrating thing about this entire thread is that I wanted to have a conversation about implementing actual on the ground solutions to countering conspiracy theories and the response was to shut down the conversation.
In an attempt to answer my own question, maybe the solution to getting people to escape conspiracy theories is to avoid personal attacks (you’re Machiavelli) and other rhetorical devices and actually have a conversation divorced from ego about a topic.
That’s a non answer. I never said conspiratorial thinking was helping the world. (However, in the example given it appears that it may have.)
What I asked was how do we implement your solution. It’s all well and good to point out problems. But if that problem is unavoidable it becomes the cost of doing business. I take your non answer to mean you don’t have one. That’s fine. I don’t either. In the example given a good result was achieved via a less than ideal way.
While we wait for the way to implement your solution I am willing to accept getting innocent children vaccinated by any means possible.
Honestly, the situation we find ourselves in is because we applied your “solution” for decades while ignoring the long-term consequences of that kind of appeasement of illogical thinking.
It sounded to me like you were advocating for Apytele’s view to counter conspiratorial thinking by giving them more made up conspiracies that happen to align with whatever short term goal you have at the time, basically to be content with having the wrong thought process reach the correct outcome for that short term goal.
I literally asked how to make people not act that way and said it is what would save the world.
No one that responded had an answer to how to implement the “solution” of getting people to have “the right thought process.” Conspiratorial thinking isn’t new. Simply saying people should be properly educated isn’t proposing an actual solution, it’s stating the obvious.
My point was that, until there is an actionable solution to achieve that result (which we are still struggling with as a species) I don’t have an issue with fighting fire with fire.
It’s fine to propose abstract ideas. The reason we are where we are as a species is that no one is able to put them into practice.
Edit to add example:
In the example the mom is an anti vaxer. The Dr. tricks her into vaxing kid. Kid grows up and can’t reconcile mom’s crazy ideas with her contrary actions. Kids starts questioning mom’s sanity. Kid starts searching for answers. Kid joins this community on lemmy. Kid sees this conversation. Kid says that’s what happened to me. Kid abandons conspiracies.
Or we as a species could simply tell mentally ill people they are mentally ill and expect the mentally ill brain to make a non mentally ill decision.
a) it’s effective and b) I think it’s important with conspiracy theorizing that instead of simply asking yourself whether or not you think it’s likely that someone is lying to you, you need to ask yourself what their motivation would be and how much effort would be required to achieve that result, THEN decide how likely it is that you are being lied to. I think the primary failing of a lot of conspiracy theorists is not that they think they’re being lied to in general, but that they neglect to do those important first steps towards creating the hypothesis. Unfortunately the actual testing is going to mostly be watching and waiting.
On a related note:
Reconstructed text from a screenshot of a reddit comment by u/Haliax:
4th year med student reporting in.
Had a rotation with a pediatrician where we ended up in the classic encounter with an anti-vaccination parent. This lady was a conspiracy theory magnet. She casually mentioned everything from 9/11 to chemtrails. Of course she loved the idea of the vaccine conspiracy as well, opting to not protect her one year old to stick it to big pharma.
I relayed all of this to my attending after my exam (I would see the patient first, gather history and do my exam to present to my attending physician). He got this sort of lazy smirk on his face that screamed “watch this”.
We go back into the exam room and we cover all of the important bits of a well-child encounter. Growth charts, behavioral milestones, nutrition, sleep…
And then we get to vaccines. She lists approximately 15 reasons why vaccines are more dangerous than the disease they protect against (lol) in addition to the various evils of the pharmaceutical industry.
My attending listens quietly until she’s done with her soapbox (about one eternity later), and then interjects with: “Have you considered the possibility that anti-vaccine propaganda could be an attempt by the Russians or the Chinese to weaken the health of the United States population?”
In a moment of catastrophic cognitive dissonance, I swear I heard a strange popping noise as her brain misfired. It actually broke her. The allure of the increasingly ridiculous conspiracy theory was just too strong.
She ended up agreeing to a modified vaccine schedule. I was flabbergasted. My attending just grinned at me in response. To this day I’m not sure the medical ethics of the situation are totally palatable, but goddamn the result was amazing.
EDIT: Thanks for the internet points, remember folks, it’s all for the kids.
God. Damn. I’m all but certain I read that post.
I think it normalizes conspiratorial thinking. Better to teach proper critical thinking.
The best option is that which is possible.
How? A correct answer saves the world.
Edit: The most frustrating thing about this entire thread is that I wanted to have a conversation about implementing actual on the ground solutions to countering conspiracy theories and the response was to shut down the conversation.
In an attempt to answer my own question, maybe the solution to getting people to escape conspiracy theories is to avoid personal attacks (you’re Machiavelli) and other rhetorical devices and actually have a conversation divorced from ego about a topic.
If only there was a community for that?
How is conspiratorial thinking helping the world right now?
That’s a non answer. I never said conspiratorial thinking was helping the world. (However, in the example given it appears that it may have.)
What I asked was how do we implement your solution. It’s all well and good to point out problems. But if that problem is unavoidable it becomes the cost of doing business. I take your non answer to mean you don’t have one. That’s fine. I don’t either. In the example given a good result was achieved via a less than ideal way.
While we wait for the way to implement your solution I am willing to accept getting innocent children vaccinated by any means possible.
Honestly, the situation we find ourselves in is because we applied your “solution” for decades while ignoring the long-term consequences of that kind of appeasement of illogical thinking.
What solution? I said I don’t have one.
It sounded to me like you were advocating for Apytele’s view to counter conspiratorial thinking by giving them more made up conspiracies that happen to align with whatever short term goal you have at the time, basically to be content with having the wrong thought process reach the correct outcome for that short term goal.
I literally asked how to make people not act that way and said it is what would save the world.
No one that responded had an answer to how to implement the “solution” of getting people to have “the right thought process.” Conspiratorial thinking isn’t new. Simply saying people should be properly educated isn’t proposing an actual solution, it’s stating the obvious.
My point was that, until there is an actionable solution to achieve that result (which we are still struggling with as a species) I don’t have an issue with fighting fire with fire.
It’s fine to propose abstract ideas. The reason we are where we are as a species is that no one is able to put them into practice.
Edit to add example:
In the example the mom is an anti vaxer. The Dr. tricks her into vaxing kid. Kid grows up and can’t reconcile mom’s crazy ideas with her contrary actions. Kids starts questioning mom’s sanity. Kid starts searching for answers. Kid joins this community on lemmy. Kid sees this conversation. Kid says that’s what happened to me. Kid abandons conspiracies.
Or we as a species could simply tell mentally ill people they are mentally ill and expect the mentally ill brain to make a non mentally ill decision.
Machiavelli would be proud.
Can’t tell if you mean that as a good or bad thing.
Generally not a compliment…
Why