- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/6541859
Wiki - The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually ceased or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.
I never signed a social contract. Your argument is false.
Teachable moment here. Your reply is why the paradox of tolerance needs to be taught to everyone, even if it’s not perfect. You didn’t sign any tolerance agreement upon birth, but treating your fellow humans with tolerance if they are doing the same for you should not be something you have to consciously agree on or physically sign paperwork for.
I understand the paradox of tolerance. This “social contract” stuff is BS, though.
“Social contract” is made up by people who don’t understand the paradox of tolerance. ITT: many of them
You’re speaking to two separate issues here. Seems like you’re on the same page regarding tolerance, so I’ll practice some more of that today and see if I can explain the concept of a social contract in layman’s terms. Presuming that you’re not trolling here.
In essence, the ‘social contract’ is a mutual agreement between individuals and their respective systems of government that states, “I will allow some of my personal sovereign rights to be curtailed by you in exchange for peace and security”. These curtailed rights are absolute freedoms, e.g. the freedom to kill anyone or steal from your neighbor - rights which everyone has but in practice few people use because most people prefer peace and to be left alone.
The social contract is what gives governments the right to rule - because governments are supposed to protect their citizens against the 1% of people in any given society that want to break laws for their own benefit. This obviously is where things start to break down when put into practice. Hopefully you can see how it’s supposed to work and why it’s essential for modern society. It’s a give and take.
If you don’t like the social contract in your area, then you vote with your feet if you can. Go somewhere else where they won’t care if you dump your night soil into the river, or that won’t give you problems if you decide to rob your neighbor. Places like that are usually pretty rough though.
First, see my comments here where I learn a little bit and explain why I still don’t like the idea. But you’ll probably get the TL;DR from this reply.
I enjoy trolling sometimes (mostly shitposting), but I’m not trolling here.
This is just called law isn’t it? I can understand that the idea of a social contract may have existed prior to the idea of “law”, but if that’s the case I am curious why the idea of ‘social contract’ is even brought up, if we can discuss it in the context of law.
This gave me pause and I needed to re-read it a bit. Just to make sure we’re on the same page, is this describing a group of people selling the idea of protection (from death or theft) for the fee of being governed (and being punished if they kill or steal)? Again, not trolling, just trying to understand who the players are in this social contract, and trying to understand the period (which would have to had been in a maybe hypothetical period before conquests, or maybe there’s just no ‘selling’ / consent and the ‘social contract’ is entered into by way of knights and swords and the threat of death if you don’t comply).
I think most people don’t want to kill / steal because it’s socially disadvantageous to do so. Cooperation that happens from communities, but also from fear of how communities may retaliate if you go after one of their own. That sounds closer to ‘social contract’ but I’d argue it’s less of a contract and more of a fact of life which can be observed in other species.
This is where I think it’s important to make the distinction of exactly what a social contract is, because at this point it sounds like anything between:
But again, this sounds like law, governance and in some cases, depending on the discussion topic, taxation.
This sounds like “If you don’t like it, you can leave”. And it sounds like law, and governance.
If that’s the case, we know the ‘social contract’ is legal, but is it moral? Does the ‘social contract’ benefit society? And most importantly what happens when one social contract explicitly states that the other social contracts cannot exist?
I guess the way that I perceive a social contract is like this, but codified and enforced by a governing body in the form of laws. In a perfect world, the laws wouldn’t be necessary, but there’s always someone who will maliciously shit the bed and they’re why the laws exist. Rational minds may think differently than I do of course and it may be simple but that’s how I see things.
And yes - if you don’t like the social contract where you live, you move if you can. Or you rebel against it I guess, with all of the consequences that either of those actions would come with. Morality doesn’t really enter into the discussion in my opinion because governments are not inherently moral in my estimation - they are judged by how they treat and take care of their people. If governments fail to take care of their citizens then the government should be reformed or replaced with one that will.
You liken a government to a mob offering protection for money, and that is an apt comparison. Don’t short change the tax man or they’ll throw you in the clink. Do I like that? Not particularly, but I do like the fire department and the federally funded roads I use, so it’s a trade off. I could choose to live in the uncharted, unclaimed woods in some backwater country and shit in a bucket to avoid all this cultural folderol, but I like my creature comforts and also I don’t wanna shit in a bucket more than is strictly necessary.
If one contract or group says another contract or group can’t exist, then we’re back at the paradox of tolerance again. Why do they think that way? Is it religion/caste/some other BS that causes this group to be intolerant of others? The end result of this difference of opinion, if not reconciled, generally leads to conflict. Better to talk these differences out if possible, you know?
Ultimately, I think it always ends up at the paradox, if you take any of these things to there logical conclusions. It would be great if we could convert nazis via discussion and logical debate, and indeed I enjoy seeing it when it happens. But a group seeking to eliminate a population will start working to eliminate that population. A society is what we make it. “We” being the people that want to build said society. Nazis are trying to make themselves part of society, and in the society I exist in, they have never been allowed. Nazi isn’t a protected class, or something we can’t change like skin color or where we were born. Nazi is an agenda, and the agenda is to institute their ‘social contract’ upon us, when it isn’t compatible. If show up when they show up, and shit on their parade, run them out of town, unmask their indentities and dox them online, we’re just obeying their social contract against their own.
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understood and agreed upon by whom? This isn’t a scientific consensus thing here. There’s some problems with the theory, at least when it comes to using it in conversation as any sort of meaningful model.
What the hell does that have to do with anything?
Well that’s just like, your opinion, man.
Work on what? I’ll give you an example: You need to work on your communication. You are insinuating that you are correct, that I am incorrect, but you’re not using words to explain this, you’re just throwing out psychological diagnoses and telling me I need to work on what… not thinking?
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You need to work on your communication. You’re very bad at communicating with others.
He needs to ‘work’ on his being autistic? Like he needs to tone down this autistic diagnosis you just performed in order for you to accept him?
Then go live outside society. Your point is invalid. Use of the system known as society is consent to the social contract.
Edit: Your name is on point though, good job there.
Look up contract law - in particular what elements are required. We didn’t really have a chance to opt out. Fuck, if I try to just end myself I’ll get locked up.
I live in society. Your argument is invalid.
Yeah. If you’re in society, advocating for intolerance of others, you’re breaking the social contract, so now I can stop tolerating you and tell you that you don’t belong in society. If you say you don’t accept the social contract you inherently don’t accept society. It would be better for you in the wilderness. Wild beasts don’t have to tolerate each other. You can live how you like and hate who you want.
I never signed a social contract. Your argument is invalid.
Unless, can you produce this social contract that I signed?
Can you share with me what the consequences are of this social contract that I signed?
What is the wording of this social contract? Can I find it online?
Do I need a notary public to sign this social contract if I find it something that’s worth my while?
Do you think contracts are things that people enter into without agreeing to them first?
Who is this contract with? Who authored this contract?
Who keeps this contract on file?
Most importantly…
Who wrote this contract?
Wow you’re obtuse. Have you never had an abstract thought in your life? You can’t see this social contract is a concept? It’s a concept that explains that If we all stop tolerating each other we’d tear each other apart, destroy all the buildings and belongings and everything, and then you WOULD live in the wilderness if you lived at all.
If you refuse to be tolerant of your neighbors, or allow others to be intolerant of them, you are saying you’re fine with a little bit of apocalypse happening. All those little bits add up and eventually destroying the social contract, destroying society, because it’s the same exact thing. Society IS the social contract. It’s not just buildings and roads and lights and pipes and farms. It’s the agreement that we want those things, and that since we don’t want ours destroyed we won’t destroy anyone who doesn’t destroy. If you’re saying that doesn’t apply to you, you’re saying you have a right to destroy as you see fit. That’s an amazingly brutal and egotistical position. Are you sure you’ve thought this out? That’s a heck of a thing to make part of your personality.
You’re describing taxation. I’m not wrong.
If you’re the one who came up with this idea of a social contract, you’re certainly not selling the idea very well.
The “social contract” is a well-known term to describe the very basic idea of a society, no matter what your political or philosophical belief
Maybe you’d recognize it as “the golden rule” – don’t do things to people that you wouldn’t want people to do to you.
This social contract isn’t something anyone has ever been able to produce. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That which is presented without evidence (e.g., “the social contract”) can be dismissed.
The golden rule is “treat others how you would like to be treated.” and it’s not a great rule. The platinum rule “Treat others how they want to be treated” is far superior.
Yet, none of this has to do with the paradox of tolerance.
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Agreed, the social contract does not exist!
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Why do you think gravity doesn’t exist?
Is this because you think “it’s a theory?”
Mathematics is also a theory, and yet 1+1 still = 2. Some theories are proven.
Gravity does exist.
His name is dipshit doesn’t understand metaphor
His name is dipshit, and he’s a single-celled organism
I’m not an egg.
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I understand the scientific method.
It’s the same contract you ‘sign’ with your friends or co-workers. People, especially in this thread, break it out as some solid ‘thing’, but it’s like any other ethereal concept that gets referred to by a concrete word. English is hard and not every word brings along every element in every instance. You could say that an ‘agreement’ must have a written, or at minimum a spoken set of terms, but you could have an agreement not to physically fight someone just by a few movements of your body, and ‘break’ that agreement by broadcasting one set of signals and then taking a swing at them.
So, who is signing what contract with Russia and Ukraine? How do people agree or disagree with that contract? What options do they have?
Can we please call things what they are?