I dont know why, but many people here (mostly americans in my experience) are rabidly allergic to the word “patriotism”. They seem to believe it means “jingoism” or “reactionary nationalism”, when in reality those bourgeois ideas are completely antipatriotic and treasonous. There is nothing more patriotic than being a communist, fighting for the people of your country. How are you not a patriot if you love your people and want them to have the life they deserve, instead of the misery imposed on them by capitalism?
I would say most people here are proud patriots of their respective countries, but if you tell this to many american comrades here, theyll get up in arms about how actually patriotism is reactionary and they arent patriots, even though they are indeed patriots, they just dont admit it for some reason. It reminds me of some self described anarchists whose beliefs are basically marxism leninism, but theyll deny being MLs because “thats a bad tankie word”. Truly a mistery why. Maybe its a reaction to the pervasive jingoism maskerading as patriotism in the USA idk.
Edit: To all the americans downvoting this, please read about the Communist Party of Greece (KKE), a very based party from an imperial core country which clearly states that they are patriots and that its their patriotic duty to oppose the EU and its imperialism.
Edit 2: Here are just 2 articles from the KKEs newspaper discussing patriotism and how its fully compatible with internationalism with quotes by Lenin:
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=209459
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=329397
Its in greek but just use google translate.
Edit 3: Article by the Communist Party of Spain (PCE) discussing revolutionary patriotism. The PCE is quite liberal and opportunist, but even they recognize that patriotism and communism go hand in hand. How much more evidence do you need?
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I’m a US citizen, and it’s hard for me to see what’s there to be proud of. The identity of the working class? Perhaps, but at that point, it’s being proud of something that, imo, is so far removed from the idea of America. It would be a bit strange for the bolsheviks to fidget over whether they should have been proud of being part of the Russian Empire at one point, and for me, it’s quite the same as patriotism in imperial core countries.
The supposed message of being proud of the working class in imperial core countries always seems to get subordinated to the will of the capitalists in times of trouble and in war especially. Also, I don’t think that nationalism is necessarily a prerequisite to caring for the collective good of people in your country.
Patriotism has nothing to do with “being proud” of anything. Were the CPC and the KMT proud of anything when they started the reunification wars? Ofc not, and thats exactly why they started those wars. Patriotism is about loving your country, and, despite what fake patriots (meaning the bourgeoisie) would want you to believe, your country is made up of its people, its not an abstract idealistic idea of “America” or any other country. China was in shambles, and it was the CPCs patriotic duty to rebuild it and save the chinese people.
This idea that “you cant be patriotic of imperial core countries” and that if you do you are proimperialist is ridiculous and doesnt exist outside of the USA. If you dont believe me, read the party programmes of european communist parties and what they have to say. A good example is the Communist Party of Greece (KKE), an ML antirevisionist and very big party that led the fight against the austerity imposed on Greece by the EU after the 2008 crisis. The KKE openly says that they are patriots, and that its their patriotic duty to oppose the EU and its global imperialism. Most european communist parties say the same thing, and the few that dont tend to be the most proiimperialist liberal and eurocommunist ones.
You americans keep repeating this lie, but its false, and all you have to do is look outside your borders to see im right. Idk why you are so obsessed with this idea, maybe its a reaction to the toxic jingoism you have over there, which calls itself “patriotism” but is not. There is nothing patriotic about joining the US military and drone striking afghan children. In fact, i would say its the opposite, its every americans patriotic duty to NOT join the US military, since the only thing that allows US capitalists to mantain their power is having enough cannon fodder to fight for them in the military.
Also i dont understand what your last sentence is about, i said nothing about nationalism.
This is a dumb talking point.
United States is an oppressor nation, not an oppressed state in need of national liberation.
@muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml Looks like we got another person repeating PatSoc talking points.
Noone talking about national liberation here, we are talking about patriotism. I guess the Communist Party of Greece are reactionary patsocs then lol ¯_(ツ)_/¯
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=209459
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=329397
Its in greek but just use google translate.
But sure, you can just accuse me of “being an american chauvinist” i guess, even tho im a spaniard with no relation to the anglosphere whatsoever, english isnt even my native language. The truth is, as that Mao quote clearly states, that all communists must be patriots. And that doesnt mean “praising your government” or “praising your flag” or anything like that. It just means you love your country and its people. There is nothing more patriotic than being a communist, communist parties all over the world acknowledge this, in Latin America, Europe, Africa, Asia and Oceania. Its only in the USA that you deny this. My guess is because you have been brainwashed by your media and education system that patriotism is bootlicking the flag, the police, the military and the Founding Fathers. Patriotism is noone of that. Noone who advocates for capitalism is a patriot, since they are more than happy to let their people suffer in misery. This is the truth, the whole world except you recognizes it.
The KKE is pretty sectarian and cringe and homophobic/transphobic, yes.
Ohhh, there we go, if you are homophobic then you are not a communist. So the strongest nonrevisionist/reformist communist party in the EU, the only strong EU communist party that has not joined NATO in its antiRussia crusade, the only EU communist party that consistently fights labor struggles for workers rights, that advocates revolution, that praises Stalin and denounces Khrushchev, is a reactionary party. Got it. I bet you love trotskyite parties that get 300 votes while spreading antiChina rhethoric.
Then i guess the USSR and the CPSU were evil reactionary patsocs. Same with Cold War era Cuba and its Communist Party. Also the modern day Russian, Belarusian, Moldovan, Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian, and many more Communist Parties. Also the DPRK and its Workers Party. Also the Communist Party of China. Yep, they are all evil, they are homophobic, and thats the most important contradiction, forget imperialism!
Wow, and you call yourself a communist? Rejecting an entire mass movement, one of the few strong principled Communist parties that still remain today, just because of social conservatism? You are not a communist, you are a proimperialist moron, thats what you are.
They supported neo-Nazis only a few years ago over some liberal candidate. And they’re incredibly homophobic/transphobic in 2022.
Go away.
To add on my previous response, i think this quote by Mao Zedong from the time of the japanese invasion of China is quite relevant on this:
"Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better. For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world.
China’s case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, “Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors.” For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism."
Source: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_10.htm
As you see, Mao clearly states, as indicated by the “” around the word “patriotism”, that the so called “patriotism” of the imperialists is false, that not only do the invaded and oppressed have the patriotic duty to fight back, but also the working class of the invader countries has the patriotic duty to fight back against their own government, since the war doesnt benefit them either. Thus, as Mao states, “[communists] not only can be [patriots], but also must be [patriots]” and this is fully compatible with internationalism. And this makes sense, the workers of the world have the same interest, to achieve socialism and then communism, so it only follows that by fighting for the interests of your countrys workers, thus being a patriot, you are also fighting for the interests of the workers of the whole world, thus being an internationalist.
Patriotism in the context of fighting in a war of literal self preservation and patriotism in the context of Americans just existing on a day to day basis are pretty different things. Everyday Americans aren’t victims of aggression of foreign invaders. Trying to isolate these quotes and ideas in a vacuum isn’t really encompassing of them in their entirety.
Patriotism has nothing to do with “being proud” of anything.
In America, it very much does, and again trying to isolate these ideas in a vacuum isn’t taking them as a whole. The reality is that in America, Patriotism, nationalism and jingoism might as well be the same thing. If you, as a Spaniard, want to be patriotic based on your understanding of the word then go for it.
despite what fake patriots (meaning the bourgeoisie) would want you to believe, your country is made up of its people, its not an abstract idealistic idea of “America” or any other country
When I say America, I’m talking about the government, it’s long history, foundation of oppression, and the willing participation from individuals in furthering that oppression for their own gain.
“you cant be patriotic of imperial core countries” and that if you do you are proimperialist is ridiculous
I never said this. Go back and read what I said. I said that in times of trouble and in war especially, ideas of patriotism have always been subordinated to the will of capitalists. In America, trying to hold on to the term patriotism in the hopes that people one day wake up and realize that well actually, patriotism is actually this socialist notion of love for your people and national liberation from the bourgeoisie is naive and will always be futile in the end. Trying to maintain your own specific definition of the word and not taking into account the historical and current conditions it exists is like trying to swim against the current. You end up getting swallowed.
Also i dont understand what your last sentence is about, i said nothing about nationalism.
There i meant patriotism, not nationalism. I was in the car typing fast.
Not trying to super get involved in this conversation but I just wanted to say I am an American and I can see quality in both sides of the argument. I’m kind of a centrist about it. I personally would find it hard to call myself a “patriot” unless I was trying to, in a sense, lie to get people on board with MLism. I definitely am not hard against it though. “Patriot” has so much baggage in American culture, it’s almost synonymous with fascism, the more universal definition of the word that you’re using though I can vibe with.
Absolutely, US is in the kind of unique situation since even the discussion about state and nation is a riverlike topic, so the patriotism is the same.
However, the entire “patsoc” issue smells like fed op to divide american comrades from the rest of the world, coming to such absurd even in this thread it’s completely unbelievable for me.
