Christ the comments here are exactly like the thread about China officially supporting a two-state solution.
“I understand the material reasons why China said what it said but I’m still gonna criticize them for not saying something far more immediately gratifying, even though I understand how it would completely undermine everything they’re working to achieve.”
You’re all smarter than this. You all know who benefits most if China drops the ball to have a little gloat. Their words are lamenting Kissinger’s passing, but their actions are continuing to destroy his legacy.
Look, my brain can realise that China needs to be pragmatic and cautious in a capitalist world, but my heart just wants to see Xi jump into a giant Karl Marx gundam and destroy Washington D.C.
We don’t have to like realpolitiking to understand its historical necessity, nor do we have to demonize China for realpolitiking while recognizing its bastardization of the truth.
The truth is that Kissinger was a genocidal piece of shit. Throwing our hands up and praising the PRC for this would be infantile and opportunistic.
Waiting for the DPRK/KCNA to release a statement. Even facing encirclement, they’ve refused to bow ideologically. They refuse to recognize the settler-project of Israel, they refuse to refrain from speaking truth regarding the ceaseless crimes of transatlantic empire. They still, somehow, maintain one of the fastest growing economies in the world.
It’s all rhetoric, the PRC is doing the smart thing. Whatever. It isn’t like us dissing them for political Ls like this is going to change anything. Pretending like they’re doing the utterly correct thing sans any criticism at all is an entirely different matter.
Undoubtedly, in a just world, Kissinger’s name would be resigned to the dustbin of history, and he would be considered on par with the likes of other genocidal maniacs. He would not be considered an “old friend” by the leader of the largest socialist nation on Earth, publicly nor privately – in a just world. We do not live in a just world. It’s fucking fine to criticize the PRC’s leadership for this.
I believe we may be misunderstanding one another. I do not intend for criticize to equate to condemn.
You do not, in any case, under any circumstances, have to hand it to Kissinger. They could have remained silent. They did not. Their words merit criticism.
Venerating genocidal scum in such a manner because he facilitated the detente between the U.S. and China under the pretext of completely obliterating the only other socialist superpower and siphoning China’s potential wealth to the core, genocidal scum that also facilitated the murder of MILLIONS elsewhere – I just do not understand how criticizing this behavior is worthy of such malice.
Not to be overly dramatic, but the PRC here reads to be abandoning internationalist solidarity with - I repeat - the MILLIONS of people Kissinger is in no small part responsible for murdering going straight up ignored.
Right now, CGTN is running hype pieces for this warmongering filth.
I’m sorry, but if this doesn’t make you seethe, cringe, or vomit, at least a little fucking bit, what kind of socialist are you?
You say that reads as abandoning internationalist solidarity when China is hard carrying the internationalist work of dismantling Kissinger’s legacy; the unipolar US hegemony that he spent his life building with other people’s blood.
It’s literally China telling the US what a wonderful sandcastle artist Kissinger was (and low key saying that the current US artists are not on Kissinger’s level), while kicking over the sandcastles he built. And people are taking umbrage at the praise.
It is important to understand the context within which this is said, and I agree that the PRC writ large has not (quoting myself) totally “abandoned internationalism”.
These statements, though, this praise, taken at face value, reads that way to me, and I’m certain it reads that way to those who were directly affected by Kissinger’s policymaking. It is nationalistic – the only internationalism present here is between the PRC and the U.S. bourgeoisie and MIC. Kissinger did far more harm than good to the international proletariat, to millions of people, and I do take umbrage with this level of praise coming from communists.
The PRC is not immune to criticism, and I am aware that many of us are the rather hypocritical westoleftos levying this criticism against the PRC, but this is a communist forum, no? It is one of our tasks to rectify incorrect ideas and criticize incorrect actions so that we as communists may grow from them.
It’s not like it would have been a great idea to shit on his legacy. But if Chinese leaders genuinely think this will win them any favors with the ever increasingly Sinophobic U.S. ruling class, I think they’re dead wrong. I, and many others, think it’s worse than saying nothing. It is little more than hot air to the people they’re ostensibly trying to placate, and it is downright offensive to those who suffered and died from U.S. imperialism during his tenure.
I have not found any official Vietnamese English-language statements on his death, but this is from SCMP. Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos’s foreign ministries have all, at this point in time, decided to stay silent on the matter.
Describing him as a “war criminal”, Ho Chi Minh City-based student Anh Nguyen, 23, said she hoped “he died with deep regrets about what he did”, reflecting a history shared through the generations by the Vietnamese Communist Party victors.
Condemning the Nobel award, history graduate Bui Khanh Minh of the Fulbright University Vietnam said Kissinger “crippled the country” during the Christmas bombing campaign of 1972 that pushed the Viet Cong to the negotiating table. “As someone from Hanoi … that decision by him and Nixon sparks a particularly personal resentment,” she said.
Will have to wait and see if any more statements are made.
I think it would be better to compare the Chinese government statement to the Vietnam (and other AES nation) government statement(s) (or lack of), and compare comments from the Vietnamese public to comments from the Chinese public. You’ll find no shortage of hatred for Kissinger where words aren’t curated by statesmanship.
Most certainly fair. I would be interested in knowing more about what average Chinese people think of Kissinger. I am hopeful it is generally not quite this level of admiration.
To be entirely honest, I’ve been basing that understanding majorly on this now-dead article (totally possible it got removed for being too pro-DPRK by the south Korean government).
Re-reading it, it weighs projected growth vs. actual growth between OECD countries and the DPRK. The DPRK does not currently seem to be reaching those goals, but I will say that five-year plans do take time. Typically five years, lol.
The DPRK is only able to take such a principled position because most of their trade is with the PRC. If China didn’t thread the diplomatic needle, DPRK would have no one to trade with.
The DPRK (WPK) maintained principled stances before, during and after having 90% of their infrastructure leveled, 10% of their population killed, and their country brutally occupied and divided by imperial powers from all sides. They maintained their principles during the Sino-Soviet split. The collapse of the USSR. They have survived tragedy after tragedy and remained principled throughout it all.
I am not saying that the PRC does not help the DPRK. I am also not accusing you of being chauvinistic. I, however, think this is a chauvinistic idea, that the DPRK can only survive because of its socialist superpower neighbor(s). The DPRK has survived because of the DPRK.
Because people have emotions, lol. Especially on an online board, anonimously. I would never let emotions control my party work. But I do hope I’m allowed to just yell something when I’m frustrated at thing, to ventilate.
I understand why China does this and to some extent I even agree with it. And the same goes for their two state solution, and I probably shouldn’t have called it weak and disappointing. But sometimes I just want to vent.
This is one of the few anglophone communities on the internet where I usually can get a break from China bashing. Especially the damned-if-they-do, damned-if-they-don’t kind of bashing. And the ‘CPC is an uncaring monolith’ interpretations of the MFA’s excessively formal (to us) public decorum.
Bruh, they called the man an old friend. Basic human respect is one thing but this man is directly responsible for the deaths of millions.
No one was expecting them to say anything “gratifying”, but friend? Lmao. It’s at worst disrespectful to the lives lost cause the US wanted to preserve the very same hegemony China is fighting against as we speak.
Sue me for feeling disgust over calling a mass murderer an “old friend”.
They kind of had to call kissinger an old friend because he advocated for China’s recognition. I doubt Xi really likes Kissinger, but China definitely owes him more than basic human respect. This is of course not to defend him or anything.
Did they really have to go so far to call him a friend? They could have simply acknowledged what he did. Did they even mention what he did to their neighbors?
Christ the comments here are exactly like the thread about China officially supporting a two-state solution.
“I understand the material reasons why China said what it said but I’m still gonna criticize them for not saying something far more immediately gratifying, even though I understand how it would completely undermine everything they’re working to achieve.”
You’re all smarter than this. You all know who benefits most if China drops the ball to have a little gloat. Their words are lamenting Kissinger’s passing, but their actions are continuing to destroy his legacy.
Look, my brain can realise that China needs to be pragmatic and cautious in a capitalist world, but my heart just wants to see Xi jump into a giant Karl Marx gundam and destroy Washington D.C.
Same, I get mixed up when I see statements like this from China. Like I get what they are doing, but also I don’t get it.
We don’t have to like realpolitiking to understand its historical necessity, nor do we have to demonize China for realpolitiking while recognizing its bastardization of the truth.
The truth is that Kissinger was a genocidal piece of shit. Throwing our hands up and praising the PRC for this would be infantile and opportunistic.
Waiting for the DPRK/KCNA to release a statement. Even facing encirclement, they’ve refused to bow ideologically. They refuse to recognize the settler-project of Israel, they refuse to refrain from speaking truth regarding the ceaseless crimes of transatlantic empire. They still, somehow, maintain one of the fastest growing economies in the world.
It’s all rhetoric, the PRC is doing the smart thing. Whatever. It isn’t like us dissing them for political Ls like this is going to change anything. Pretending like they’re doing the utterly correct thing sans any criticism at all is an entirely different matter.
Undoubtedly, in a just world, Kissinger’s name would be resigned to the dustbin of history, and he would be considered on par with the likes of other genocidal maniacs. He would not be considered an “old friend” by the leader of the largest socialist nation on Earth, publicly nor privately – in a just world. We do not live in a just world. It’s fucking fine to criticize the PRC’s leadership for this.
Criticize the PRC leadership because we don’t live in a just world?
Or… criticize the PRC leadership for being responsible with the consequences of their words?
I believe we may be misunderstanding one another. I do not intend for criticize to equate to condemn.
You do not, in any case, under any circumstances, have to hand it to Kissinger. They could have remained silent. They did not. Their words merit criticism.
Venerating genocidal scum in such a manner because he facilitated the detente between the U.S. and China under the pretext of completely obliterating the only other socialist superpower and siphoning China’s potential wealth to the core, genocidal scum that also facilitated the murder of MILLIONS elsewhere – I just do not understand how criticizing this behavior is worthy of such malice.
Not to be overly dramatic, but the PRC here reads to be abandoning internationalist solidarity with - I repeat - the MILLIONS of people Kissinger is in no small part responsible for murdering going straight up ignored.
Right now, CGTN is running hype pieces for this warmongering filth.
I’m sorry, but if this doesn’t make you seethe, cringe, or vomit, at least a little fucking bit, what kind of socialist are you?
You say that reads as abandoning internationalist solidarity when China is hard carrying the internationalist work of dismantling Kissinger’s legacy; the unipolar US hegemony that he spent his life building with other people’s blood.
It’s literally China telling the US what a wonderful sandcastle artist Kissinger was (and low key saying that the current US artists are not on Kissinger’s level), while kicking over the sandcastles he built. And people are taking umbrage at the praise.
It is important to understand the context within which this is said, and I agree that the PRC writ large has not (quoting myself) totally “abandoned internationalism”.
These statements, though, this praise, taken at face value, reads that way to me, and I’m certain it reads that way to those who were directly affected by Kissinger’s policymaking. It is nationalistic – the only internationalism present here is between the PRC and the U.S. bourgeoisie and MIC. Kissinger did far more harm than good to the international proletariat, to millions of people, and I do take umbrage with this level of praise coming from communists.
The PRC is not immune to criticism, and I am aware that many of us are the rather hypocritical westoleftos levying this criticism against the PRC, but this is a communist forum, no? It is one of our tasks to rectify incorrect ideas and criticize incorrect actions so that we as communists may grow from them.
It’s not like it would have been a great idea to shit on his legacy. But if Chinese leaders genuinely think this will win them any favors with the ever increasingly Sinophobic U.S. ruling class, I think they’re dead wrong. I, and many others, think it’s worse than saying nothing. It is little more than hot air to the people they’re ostensibly trying to placate, and it is downright offensive to those who suffered and died from U.S. imperialism during his tenure.
I have not found any official Vietnamese English-language statements on his death, but this is from SCMP. Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos’s foreign ministries have all, at this point in time, decided to stay silent on the matter.
Will have to wait and see if any more statements are made.
I think it would be better to compare the Chinese government statement to the Vietnam (and other AES nation) government statement(s) (or lack of), and compare comments from the Vietnamese public to comments from the Chinese public. You’ll find no shortage of hatred for Kissinger where words aren’t curated by statesmanship.
Most certainly fair. I would be interested in knowing more about what average Chinese people think of Kissinger. I am hopeful it is generally not quite this level of admiration.
Where do you get those numbers? I find completely different ones.
To be entirely honest, I’ve been basing that understanding majorly on this now-dead article (totally possible it got removed for being too pro-DPRK by the south Korean government).
https://archive.is/BoWUU
Re-reading it, it weighs projected growth vs. actual growth between OECD countries and the DPRK. The DPRK does not currently seem to be reaching those goals, but I will say that five-year plans do take time. Typically five years, lol.
Here is comrade @afellowkid’s translated summary:
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/398663
The DPRK is only able to take such a principled position because most of their trade is with the PRC. If China didn’t thread the diplomatic needle, DPRK would have no one to trade with.
The DPRK (WPK) maintained principled stances before, during and after having 90% of their infrastructure leveled, 10% of their population killed, and their country brutally occupied and divided by imperial powers from all sides. They maintained their principles during the Sino-Soviet split. The collapse of the USSR. They have survived tragedy after tragedy and remained principled throughout it all.
I am not saying that the PRC does not help the DPRK. I am also not accusing you of being chauvinistic. I, however, think this is a chauvinistic idea, that the DPRK can only survive because of its socialist superpower neighbor(s). The DPRK has survived because of the DPRK.
Because people have emotions, lol. Especially on an online board, anonimously. I would never let emotions control my party work. But I do hope I’m allowed to just yell something when I’m frustrated at thing, to ventilate.
I understand why China does this and to some extent I even agree with it. And the same goes for their two state solution, and I probably shouldn’t have called it weak and disappointing. But sometimes I just want to vent.
Yeah I guess I’m venting too.
This is one of the few anglophone communities on the internet where I usually can get a break from China bashing. Especially the damned-if-they-do, damned-if-they-don’t kind of bashing. And the ‘CPC is an uncaring monolith’ interpretations of the MFA’s excessively formal (to us) public decorum.
Bruh, they called the man an old friend. Basic human respect is one thing but this man is directly responsible for the deaths of millions.
No one was expecting them to say anything “gratifying”, but friend? Lmao. It’s at worst disrespectful to the lives lost cause the US wanted to preserve the very same hegemony China is fighting against as we speak.
Sue me for feeling disgust over calling a mass murderer an “old friend”.
They kind of had to call kissinger an old friend because he advocated for China’s recognition. I doubt Xi really likes Kissinger, but China definitely owes him more than basic human respect. This is of course not to defend him or anything.
Did they really have to go so far to call him a friend? They could have simply acknowledged what he did. Did they even mention what he did to their neighbors?
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