At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes. Yes, some people (farmers) live outside of town and there are some American-style housing in clumps outside of the town, but everyone mostly lives in tight clusters.
And even the tiny towns well away from other larger towns have busses that move people between towns on a fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart). Only the larger population centres can afford to have public transport that comes every 5 minutes or so.
You also have to understand that in North America, a “significant separation between towns” is something like 100+km. In Germany, that term qualifies with as little as a 10km distance. It’s rare to find any population centre that is more than 20km away from its nearest neighbour.
At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes.
Pandemics are a thing
Families wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up. All of the grocery stores and mini-box stores left downtown Seattle because a lot are work from home now. If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature. You need to have transit for that.
Edit: I’m trying to understand the downvotes, is this not being taught in urban planning? Is it just developers wanting to rent their spaces because their leases are closing out? Or is it naive people wanting to force their ideas without realizing humans are going to make decisions in the process as well? Super interesting thread.
One of the mistakes for which j think you are down voted is thinking you can’t have nature nearby if you live in a more dense cluster. Quite the opposite is true. People living in apartments 4 or 5 high leaves a lot more open space available for parks, playgrounds, etc. Suburban sprawl looking for “wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play” is exactly what destroys this space in cities in the first place…
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up.
This is just a tautology
I think water is great if it has two hydrogens for each oxygen
Even if you have most things nearby for day-to-day life but still need to travel an hour for any of: school, work, daycare, groceries, or even common leisure or entertainment activities, “green spaces”… Then that ain’t a 15 minute city.
Additionally, transit is absolutely included in 15 minute city concept - whether it be pedestrian, biking, bus, train, mixed-mode trips, cars*… It’s a holistic concept so of course these are all under the umbrella.
* yes even cars can be included, but in order for the others to be successful they are general de-prioritized in this model.
Edit: I’ll also add that I see “15-minute city” is an aspirational goal, and anything that moves us closer towards it tends to be good for the people that live there - and even if not fully achieved in a particular place, this type of hand-wringing about specific aspects in order to disregard the whole concept seems disingenuous at best.
Right, so let’s say we do it, we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what? How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters? Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one? Are you going to remake the economy?
You guys have to be trolling me, right? This is my last comment because I suspect you guys are.
I think 15 minute cities are great, people should accommodate the people that want them
The 15 minute cities won’t solve the corporation problem of hogging all of the resources and it seems like a distraction from them being the problem.
You need transit, not everyone is 18-24, naive, and healthy with no kids
we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what?
Take a plane, a train, or an automobile!
How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters?
I’m fine with them. I’d prefer that they stayed off sidewalks, but that’s my only real thought on them.
Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one?
If you want to. I think a lot of the other commenters suggested using public transit. You could also drive. Maybe they do mail order?
You need transit, not everyone is 18-24, naive, and healthy with no kids
All of the comments I’ve read haven’t mentioned transit, or have been transit positive.
Only thing urban planners seem to understand is if you make driving more difficult somehow this magically makes mass transit better instead of people just refusing to go to that area. Also that poor people don’t have a right to park their car.
I live in France, about 30 minutes from a major city. There is transit, but it’s not good, and has very few stops near where I live. Grocery shopping has to be done by car or bike as there aren’t any shops in the village. European cities are extremely well served by transit, but outside the metropolitan areas, cars are still king.
It’s a really interesting thread. Cities are great, suburb & rural can be great and transit is great. 15 minute cities are great goals, but it’s not a one size fits all situation. I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist? Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard? Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people. They’re either right out of school or trolling, I can’t tell which.
It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist?
As a handicapped person myself, it really baffles me how people think car oriented infrastructure is so much better for us. I am a wheelchair user, and I live in a 15 minute neighborhood. Getting around in my wheelchair is a million times simpler there than in my old car-centric suburb, because the same disabilities that make me wheelchair bound also prevent me from driving. Which mean that in a car-centric environment I do one of the following:
a) Rely on the generosity of friends and family to cart me around at their convenience, or
b) Utilize shared access rides, which are door to door, but take longer than using public transit, or
c) Roll myself to underserved suburban bus stops over badly maintained sidewalk, and pray I make it on time.
None of which are appealing.
Meanwhile, in my 15 minute city:
The buses often run at 10 to 15 minute intervals (vs 30 to 60 minutes in the suburb),
Handicapped people are more affected by the inverse. Small cities are great, car-centric communes are terrible for them. They’ve worked out their own mobility issues, but those solutions are interrupted when the crosswalks and pedestrian bridges are affected. If the “solution” involves getting in and out of a car repeatedly, it’s often cumbersome for people in wheelchairs.
The point on kids really relates more to neighborhood safety, and how often people interact with a community. Often, kids should be trusted to go down the street to the park. All our old Saturday newspaper comics involve kids going places themselves on foot or bike instead of constantly “being dropped off”.
I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird
Isn’t the assumption that the 15 minute city is a neighbourhood in a functional city? There should be transit.
It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist?
I lived in something like a fifteen minute neighbourhood. I saw people in wheelchairs around. They appeared to use the same amenities as everyone else.
Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard?
Our kids preferred going to playgrounds because the toys and play structures were better. And they ran into kids they knew.
Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people.
I’m not sure what would be bad about a fifteen minute neighbourhood. It’s just a normal neighbourhood, with stores, schools, work, and civic infrastructure.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
You never even seen the Netherlands, have you? Also, what I tell everyone who comes up with these kind of non-questions, no one is taking your car away. Cars still exist in Europe, but they are not the default, they are used for what they make sense, making irregular trips of 100+Km. But chances are, that there is a train that serves the route anyway.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
Kids: My sister lives in the outskirts of Madrid, her neighborhood is littered with dozens of parks of all kinds, all less than 10 minute walks. My 10 y.o. nephew can go on his own to many parks without ever having to set foot on asphalt, cross a road or get on neither a bus or a car. He has never had to play on a street. They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
The first time I went to Amsterdam I was very surprised to see children just wandering about coming from or going to a nearby park. It’s not something you really see here in the US.
Not anymore. It used to be the rule in the US. Even as recently as the 70s and 80s when I was a kid, we’d be gone from home all day everyday when not in school, just roaming around town and keeping ourselves entertained, usually on bikes or skateboards. We got up to a lot of mischief and hijinks, but nothing too serious, and we had a great time doing it.
You might want to go through my comments again, lol. You seem very upset about me somewhat disagreeing with you.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
This comment really is funny when you look at it. First you’re pretty patronizing that they have access to the bike lanes too! I know in Seattle, you’d be crazy to use the bike lanes if you were handicapped. And 15 minute cites usually have “walkable” in the tagline.
They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
Great, now compare that to a mini or studio apartment in Seattle. Better yet, compare that to an apartment on the South side of Chicago. As like anything else, if you’re wealthy (not poor or middle class), everything is awesome.
I don’t know why you’re arguing with me, your black and white stance is confusing and tone deaf.
My family is quite the opposite of wealthy. It has nothing to do with class. The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work. I read the whole thread and you seem to be either really confused or rather short of reading comprehension. You seem to have the impression that a bike lane is an asphalt gutter next to the cars where only athletic young men in full sport gear ride bicycles. But in Europe bike lanes are segregated wide, well conditioned spaces, where kids, people with mobility limitations, adults and elderly all share a slow speed lane safe and protected from cars.
The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work.
I’m not saying they don’t? Wow, there must be a language barrier or something. I’m saying yes they can and do work, but some people want something else.
Yeah, and the people who want something else use the same arguments and rhetoric questions you have used all over this thread that are all fallacies meant to shutdown promotion of the concept because they feel personally threatened by the idea of stopping oil dependence.
LMAO, no. I’m not trying to shut down anyone. I’m trying to say that you guys are naive to think that everyone wants to live in a walkable city. I think a good portion of young people do, which is great and they should be accommodated. You also need transit to support those walkable cities or do you think getting there if you don’t live there, magically happens without cars. Please don’t tell me you’re an urban planner.
Impossible. This thread has shown me that literally all of Europe has year round Christmas markets with form of mechanical transportation. An entire continent reduce to pre-horse travel. Enough with facts feelings are all that is real.
They have transit to back that up though. There are plenty of smallish towns and rural areas that don’t have any transit at all.
At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes. Yes, some people (farmers) live outside of town and there are some American-style housing in clumps outside of the town, but everyone mostly lives in tight clusters.
And even the tiny towns well away from other larger towns have busses that move people between towns on a fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart). Only the larger population centres can afford to have public transport that comes every 5 minutes or so.
You also have to understand that in North America, a “significant separation between towns” is something like 100+km. In Germany, that term qualifies with as little as a 10km distance. It’s rare to find any population centre that is more than 20km away from its nearest neighbour.
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up. All of the grocery stores and mini-box stores left downtown Seattle because a lot are work from home now. If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature. You need to have transit for that.
Edit: I’m trying to understand the downvotes, is this not being taught in urban planning? Is it just developers wanting to rent their spaces because their leases are closing out? Or is it naive people wanting to force their ideas without realizing humans are going to make decisions in the process as well? Super interesting thread.
One of the mistakes for which j think you are down voted is thinking you can’t have nature nearby if you live in a more dense cluster. Quite the opposite is true. People living in apartments 4 or 5 high leaves a lot more open space available for parks, playgrounds, etc. Suburban sprawl looking for “wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play” is exactly what destroys this space in cities in the first place…
This is just a tautology
I think water is great if it has two hydrogens for each oxygen
Even if you have most things nearby for day-to-day life but still need to travel an hour for any of: school, work, daycare, groceries, or even common leisure or entertainment activities, “green spaces”… Then that ain’t a 15 minute city.
Additionally, transit is absolutely included in 15 minute city concept - whether it be pedestrian, biking, bus, train, mixed-mode trips, cars*… It’s a holistic concept so of course these are all under the umbrella.
* yes even cars can be included, but in order for the others to be successful they are general de-prioritized in this model.
Edit: I’ll also add that I see “15-minute city” is an aspirational goal, and anything that moves us closer towards it tends to be good for the people that live there - and even if not fully achieved in a particular place, this type of hand-wringing about specific aspects in order to disregard the whole concept seems disingenuous at best.
But oxygen is what gives us life.
I’m going to have two hydrogen and two oxygen, thank you very much.
Not for long, but enjoy it while it lasts!
Prospect Park is often called Brooklyn’s back yard.
The fifteen minute city is the infrastructure.
Right, so let’s say we do it, we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what? How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters? Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one? Are you going to remake the economy?
You guys have to be trolling me, right? This is my last comment because I suspect you guys are.
Good luck!
Take a plane, a train, or an automobile!
I’m fine with them. I’d prefer that they stayed off sidewalks, but that’s my only real thought on them.
If you want to. I think a lot of the other commenters suggested using public transit. You could also drive. Maybe they do mail order?
All of the comments I’ve read haven’t mentioned transit, or have been transit positive.
Only thing urban planners seem to understand is if you make driving more difficult somehow this magically makes mass transit better instead of people just refusing to go to that area. Also that poor people don’t have a right to park their car.
I live in France, about 30 minutes from a major city. There is transit, but it’s not good, and has very few stops near where I live. Grocery shopping has to be done by car or bike as there aren’t any shops in the village. European cities are extremely well served by transit, but outside the metropolitan areas, cars are still king.
It’s a really interesting thread. Cities are great, suburb & rural can be great and transit is great. 15 minute cities are great goals, but it’s not a one size fits all situation. I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist? Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard? Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people. They’re either right out of school or trolling, I can’t tell which.
As a handicapped person myself, it really baffles me how people think car oriented infrastructure is so much better for us. I am a wheelchair user, and I live in a 15 minute neighborhood. Getting around in my wheelchair is a million times simpler there than in my old car-centric suburb, because the same disabilities that make me wheelchair bound also prevent me from driving. Which mean that in a car-centric environment I do one of the following:
a) Rely on the generosity of friends and family to cart me around at their convenience, or b) Utilize shared access rides, which are door to door, but take longer than using public transit, or c) Roll myself to underserved suburban bus stops over badly maintained sidewalk, and pray I make it on time.
None of which are appealing.
Meanwhile, in my 15 minute city:
And you’re not blind and don’t have a caretaker I assume.
Correct on both counts.
Handicapped people are more affected by the inverse. Small cities are great, car-centric communes are terrible for them. They’ve worked out their own mobility issues, but those solutions are interrupted when the crosswalks and pedestrian bridges are affected. If the “solution” involves getting in and out of a car repeatedly, it’s often cumbersome for people in wheelchairs.
The point on kids really relates more to neighborhood safety, and how often people interact with a community. Often, kids should be trusted to go down the street to the park. All our old Saturday newspaper comics involve kids going places themselves on foot or bike instead of constantly “being dropped off”.
Isn’t the assumption that the 15 minute city is a neighbourhood in a functional city? There should be transit.
I lived in something like a fifteen minute neighbourhood. I saw people in wheelchairs around. They appeared to use the same amenities as everyone else.
Our kids preferred going to playgrounds because the toys and play structures were better. And they ran into kids they knew.
I’m not sure what would be bad about a fifteen minute neighbourhood. It’s just a normal neighbourhood, with stores, schools, work, and civic infrastructure.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
No, there are people in this thread saying that 15 minute cities are the transit. You’d think that would be the case.
Look again at this thread, lol.
Neighborhoods that promote no cars would be great as long as they have the transit to back it up, imo as well.
Dig deeper and you’ll see the crazy.
You never even seen the Netherlands, have you? Also, what I tell everyone who comes up with these kind of non-questions, no one is taking your car away. Cars still exist in Europe, but they are not the default, they are used for what they make sense, making irregular trips of 100+Km. But chances are, that there is a train that serves the route anyway.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
Kids: My sister lives in the outskirts of Madrid, her neighborhood is littered with dozens of parks of all kinds, all less than 10 minute walks. My 10 y.o. nephew can go on his own to many parks without ever having to set foot on asphalt, cross a road or get on neither a bus or a car. He has never had to play on a street. They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
The first time I went to Amsterdam I was very surprised to see children just wandering about coming from or going to a nearby park. It’s not something you really see here in the US.
Not anymore. It used to be the rule in the US. Even as recently as the 70s and 80s when I was a kid, we’d be gone from home all day everyday when not in school, just roaming around town and keeping ourselves entertained, usually on bikes or skateboards. We got up to a lot of mischief and hijinks, but nothing too serious, and we had a great time doing it.
Same. 80s kid myself. I used to get on my bicycle and roam for MILES. The rule was be home by dark. Had a house key when I was 9.
You might want to go through my comments again, lol. You seem very upset about me somewhat disagreeing with you.
This comment really is funny when you look at it. First you’re pretty patronizing that they have access to the bike lanes too! I know in Seattle, you’d be crazy to use the bike lanes if you were handicapped. And 15 minute cites usually have “walkable” in the tagline.
Great, now compare that to a mini or studio apartment in Seattle. Better yet, compare that to an apartment on the South side of Chicago. As like anything else, if you’re wealthy (not poor or middle class), everything is awesome.
I don’t know why you’re arguing with me, your black and white stance is confusing and tone deaf.
My family is quite the opposite of wealthy. It has nothing to do with class. The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work. I read the whole thread and you seem to be either really confused or rather short of reading comprehension. You seem to have the impression that a bike lane is an asphalt gutter next to the cars where only athletic young men in full sport gear ride bicycles. But in Europe bike lanes are segregated wide, well conditioned spaces, where kids, people with mobility limitations, adults and elderly all share a slow speed lane safe and protected from cars.
I’m not saying they don’t? Wow, there must be a language barrier or something. I’m saying yes they can and do work, but some people want something else.
Yeah, and the people who want something else use the same arguments and rhetoric questions you have used all over this thread that are all fallacies meant to shutdown promotion of the concept because they feel personally threatened by the idea of stopping oil dependence.
LMAO, no. I’m not trying to shut down anyone. I’m trying to say that you guys are naive to think that everyone wants to live in a walkable city. I think a good portion of young people do, which is great and they should be accommodated. You also need transit to support those walkable cities or do you think getting there if you don’t live there, magically happens without cars. Please don’t tell me you’re an urban planner.
Impossible. This thread has shown me that literally all of Europe has year round Christmas markets with form of mechanical transportation. An entire continent reduce to pre-horse travel. Enough with facts feelings are all that is real.