Every so often i start believing all the posts about how Linux really made a lot of progress, and the desktop experience is so much better now, and everything is supported, and i give it another try.
I’ve got a small intel 13th gen NUC i use as a small server, and for playing movies from. It runs windows 11, but as i want to run some docker containers on it, i thought, why not give Linux a try again, how bad can it be. (after all, i’ve got multiple raspberry pi’s running, and a synology diskstation, and i’m no stranger to ssh’ing into them to manage some stuff)
Downloaded the latest Ubuntu Desktop (23.10), since it’s still a highly recommended distro, and started my journey.
First obvious task: connect to my SMB shares on my synology to get access to any media. Tough luck, whatever tool Ubuntu uses for that always tries SMBv1 protocol first, which is disabled on my synology due to security reasons. If i enable it on my synology i get a nice warning that SMBv1 is vulnurable and has been used to perform ransomware attacks, so maybe i’d rather leave it disabled (although i assume that’s mostly the case if the port were accessible from the internet, but still). Then i thought “it’s probably some setting somewhere to change this”, but after further googling, i found an issue that whatever ubuntu is using for SMB needs a patch to not default to SMBv1 to get a list of shares… Yeah, great start for the oh so secure linux, i’d need to enable a protocol that got used in ransomware attacks over 6 years ago to get everything to work properly… (yeah, i ended up finding how to mount things manually, and then added it to my fstab as a workaround, but wtf)
Then, i installed Kodi, tried to play some content. Noticed that even though i enabled that setting on Kodi, it’s not switching to the refreshrate of the video i’m playing. Googling further on that just felt like walking through a tarpit. From the dedicated librelec distro that runs just kodi that has special patches to resolve this, to discussions about X not supporting switching refreshrates, and Kodi having a standalone mode that doesn’t use a window manager that should solve it but doesn’t, and also finding people with similar woes about HDR. I guess the future of the desktop user is watching stuttering videos with bad color rendition? I’d give more details about what i found if there were any. Try googling it yourself, you’ll find so little yet contradictory things…
Not being entirely defeated yet, i thought “i’ve got this nice GUI on my synology for managing docker containers & images, let’s see if i can find something nice on ubuntu”, and found dockstation as something i could try. Downloaded the .deb file (since ubuntu is a debian variant it seems), double clicked the file and … “no app installed for this file”… google around a bit, after some misleading results regarding older ubuntu versions, i found the issue: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2023/10/install-deb-ubuntu-23-10-no-app-error
Of course Ubuntu just threw out the old installer for debian files, and didn’t replace it yet. Wouldn’t want a user to just be able to easily install files! what is this, windows?
For real, i see all the Linux love here, and for the headless servers i have here (the raspberries & the synology), i get it. But goddamn this desktop experience is so ridiculous, there has to be better than this right? I’m missing something, or doing something completely wrong, or… right?
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I’m not going to say using a different distro will fix all your problems but yeah, your experience is not normal. A lot of this is because Ubuntu is not highly recommended. It’s just popular, but there are a bunch of terrible decisions it makes that barely anybody recommends it.
Of course Ubuntu just threw out the old installer for debian files, and didn’t replace it yet. Wouldn’t want a user to just be able to easily install files!
Checks out. Ubuntu is also one of the only modern distros that doesn’t come with Flatpak, which is a massive store of applications that’s quite easy to use and has a huge store of applications.
May I recommend something like PopOS instead? It’s based on Ubuntu so everything from there will work on it, including .deb files. It’s basically Ubuntu but with way, WAY saner defaults and a better beginner experience. I think your experience will be a lot better on a nicer distro.
Downloaded the latest Ubuntu Desktop
Theres your problem.
Came here to say this immediately after reading this.
I get wanting a “homey” os, but you can accomplish this in many ways (plain ol debian is great!)
For someone that isn’t up-to-date on what’s popular and hip (and why), Ubu is still the defacto ‘starting point’ as it was recommended for yeaaaaars, and so bashing on someone because they went with what was very highly recommended and ‘just install Ubuntu, dumbass’-like comments from the last decade+ ago, isn’t helping anyone.
There are a shitfuckton of distros. How is an inexperienced (or fuck, experienced) user supposed to know that, the differences between them all, or what works best for their use case? The community is so fragmented as they throw shit at each other (Arch! Pop_OS! Fedora! Debian! “anything with a gui is a loser!”; I’ve seen it all over the last like 15+ years) that someone asking a question (like this) gets shit on (like this) because ‘new users should have immediate experience!’ (‘entry level job as a jr dev in Go; minimum 20 years experience’ comes to mind), ‘they are stupid for trying [distro], [my choice of niche distro] would have been way better]’, etc… and it just drives people away.
This isn’t pointed directly at you/above comment, but it’s the mentality, the whole ‘what a dumbass for trying X’ that hurts what is otherwise (from what I’ve seen over the years) a pretty helpful and kind community. But fuck me, someone needs to throw a site of like, top 10 starter/simple distros, with bullet points for/against each, and the community needs to embrace it and vote for replacements when one falls out of favor. Expecting new users to know about this or that or if they compiled that one themselves they’d be able to get the features they expect, is just so cringe. An echo chamber, and those that seek help get shit on.
I think your troubles might come from the assumptions you’re making of other people based off the assumptions you’ve gleamed from other people in your experience.
My comment, to me, read “that’s your problem right there, hahaha. (Laughing about the commonality of the problem not at anyone) Try out Debian, Ubuntu is bloatware”
It’s more the combination of negative post votes + comments
Thanks for the reply, i didn’t really want to make this post, but i thought “it’s 2023, how bad could it be switching to linux”, and then this stuff happened. And of course it’s downvoted because… the harsh truth isn’t popular…
And the even worse issue is that i’m a developer, i’m very technical, i don’t mind looking up solutions, i don’t mind using the command line, and i’ve got some headless linux servers here (and yeah, synology/raspberry pi is the ‘easy’ linux headless servers, but i know how to use them and have done things beyond beginner stuff on them).
But these 3 issues right from the beginning were just… wow… a protocol that got breached 7 years ago being the default you can’t change. The installer for a package type that many applications use to get installed on your OS suddenly going missing on the current “stable” version. And while i can right click on my desktop and change the refreshrate of my display via the display manager, having an app do the same probably requires some arcane knowledge even an experienced developer can’t google. And HDR is another layer of hell that requires specific software, because why support a nice feature that has been introduced (googles it)… 20 years ago… be supported by default by linux…
I get multiple replies “you’re expecting it to work like windows”. If expecting a stable version to be stable, 7 year old vulnerabilities being closed, and 20 year old features working is expecting the windows experience… then yeah, the linux experience isn’t for me. But if that’s honestly what you guys are saying… i really don’t think the issue is me…
i don’t get your problem with smbv1 and your complaints about it tbh … its deprecated in ubuntu since 20.04 - samba v1 is not the only way to access via ubuntu - and its by far not recommended. you might have configured it because out of the box its not the supported version
your downvotes and the reactions you get is because of your atitude man … there are plenty of people who would help … but coming to a linux thread complaining how bad your experience is and complaining about how bad the comments are without doing your part is just a bad style
i read a couple of followups - i do not see a single log output, just complaints
the whole linux world is about configuring your system the way you(!) want it to have - thats the difference to windows, thats the difference to mac … but if you don’t want to do the config stuff, you go with a ready to use one … ubuntu might be one of them
you face samba issues - write an issue so somebody can help … what have you already changed (because smbv1 is NOT the default version of ubuntu), what did you try to make it use smbv2/3 - what errors did you get? there are thousands of tutorials available for ubuntu - which one did you follow, did you do the config in the file manager (the default one or did you install a different one) … etc
your kodi issue about framerates is a kodi issue and a short search shows that this issue also happens on mac for example - which i somehow understand because changing framerates has affects to the change of the window server so someone must decide either take what kodi is saying to take or what is configured for the output device, so there might be a trickery in kodi to do it and that might be the issue. but it could also happen becuase of multiple displays - with differrent framerates - who knows … and how shall we know to support you if you just spend your time complaining
your docker issue with a downloaded deb package from the net … wtf - first of all why not use something from the repositories … getting out of just downloading something from someone and installing it should be prio 1 when changing to linux … but how hard could it be to do a
sudo apt install ./filename.debdo not tell me you spend 5min on the investigation … you want to have an out of the box solution which you can complain about - that’s not linux
you want a os which lets you do whatever you like - thats linux … you don’t know how its done and you’re not willing to learn but still want to do some crazy shit - that’s not linux
your docker issue with a downloaded deb package from the net … wtf - first of all why not use something from the repositories … getting out of just downloading something from someone and installing it should be prio 1 when changing to linux … but how hard could it be to do a sudo apt install ./filename.deb
Oh man, i love all the comments saying this, and now seeing this pop up: [https://startrek.website/post/5789855](https://startrek.website/post/5789855)
Steam saying “if you want to install steam on ubuntu, just download our .deb package”.
Yeah, obviously people moving to Linux will figure out they don’t need to download .deb packages if THE MAIN THING THAT USED TO KEEP THEM ON WINDOWS, NOW FINALLY AVAILABLE ON LINUX, AND MADE BY A HUGE TECH COMPANY USES A .DEB PACKAGE.
And yeah, i can find command line ways of installing a package. But that pretty much defeats the entire point of a linux desktop you know, the entire thing i’m complaining here about. If your answer to me complaining that the linux desktop being a dud is “yeah, most things don’t work, just use the command line”, you’re completely confirming me in the message of my post.
Linux Mint is often suggested as a good transition distro for Windows users. They’ve got a Debian edition now, although I haven’t actually tried it out.
Nice! I’ve heard good things about mint as well. Tan it on an old desktop a while back for a bit but just ended up switching to something even more bare bones/less graphically intensive.
It’s a tough balance getting performance and visual usability to play nice without walking over each other
“Plain ol debian” is the kind of distro that will ship SMBv1 without SMBv2, because “stability” (to be clear, i dont know if they do, but its the kind of thing they would do)
Debian loves to ship out of date garbage, because “out of date, but unchanging” is better than just shipping up to date stuff
debian stable isn’t a good desktop distro, it’s super stable cause it’s meant for servers that have to stay up all the time
“Stable” here means “unchanging” and not “crash proof” unfortunately. Shipping software that is already 1-2 years out of date for a server that I intend to stay up all the time means that by the time I get a chance to run updates, the software is even more out of date.
The OP’s SMB issue is exactly the kind of thing that would be WORSE on debian. “We’re going to stick with SMBv1 by default, because not changing it is more ‘stable’ even though it’s incredibly out of date”
And now you are stuck with this decision because you can’t afford downtime on your server to resolve it. Shipping drastically out of date software isn’t always a good thing either. Refusing to ship SMBv2 (again, I don’t know what version of SMB Debian ships, using this purely as an example of the type of thing they do) in the name of “stability” even though it solves a ton of problems with SMBv1 is not a good experience.
They try to backport security fixes, but there are times where those get missed, and it also means that they aren’t backporting bugfixes that they don’t find “critical” enough.
So yes, Debian is only good for the scenario where you would prefer to have the same bugs for a year on end because “unchanging” is more important than “up to date, and patched”
Yeah, it’s not as if memes like this are still all over here on the fediverse: https://lemmy.gockandgum.party/post/https%3A%2F%2Flemmy.gockandgum.party/4488?thread=0.16856.18063
and everyone upvoting it and people getting the impression that starting on ubuntu is still a good idea.
i’ve probably got nearly as many distro recommendations as i’ve got replies here, because as if you guys know which distro would support a whole 3 complicated usecases i gave (not use a vulnurable protocol, have an installer, and supporting some slightly advanced feature for applications to use).
I gave ubuntu a try because i’ve seen regular posts here about ubuntu vs mint, and people being pretty balanced about both, maybe i missed all the posts that said “using ubuntu will cause you hours of pain avoiding vulnurabilities that are almost a decade old by now, with unstable ‘stable’ version etc…”, but i do remember plenty of posts here being like “just start with ubuntu or mint, it’ll be fine”.
It’s because old advice dies hard. Ubuntu had a good like 15 years of being the default choice, but now Canonical wants to IPO and they’re going to wring as much revenue as they can from anything they can get their hands on. That inevitably leads to enshittification, and Ubuntu is going through that process right now.
once again … UBUNTU DOES NOT USE SMBv1 as default !
i don’t and will never use UBUNTU … but you’re complaining about something you might have configured yourself!!!
your problems are for sure real - but don’t tell ppl its because ubuntu is using a vulnarable protocol
Yeah, someone else totally didn’t link the ticket (open since 2019) here about whatever ubuntu uses for its SMB share discovery defaulting to SMB1 and giving the exact error message i got when trying to see the SMB shares list of the server it discovered.
So yeah, not all of ubuntu defaults to it, but discovery sure does, and it’s embarrasing. I made this issue knowing full well that the things i complained about are 100% accurate.
You can continue to live in your imaginary world where Ubuntu is better, but it simply isn’t.
my whole point is, that your time spent on complaining would be better invested if you just write some questions which could be answered by the community rather than being sarcastically questioning the sanity of an operation system, just because you fail to use it
Suggestions:
- could somebody help me to install a deb file on ubuntu which i downloaded - the deb installer is not existing anymore
would maybe lead to:
- check out deb installer XYZ which you can find in the software center
- install via the terminal using sudo apt install ./XYZ.deb
Suggestion2:
- the network discovery doesn’t find my NAS, I’m using ubuntu XX.YY with the default filemanager (or something else) … what could be the issue
would maybe lead to:
- try mounting it directly to a folder using:
sudo mount -t cifs //[NAS_IP]/[Share_Name] [Mount_Point] -o username=[Your_Username],password=[Your_Password] - if it fails do
dmesg | grep -i cifsand let me know the outcome
we are pretty friendly usually … but if you don’t do your part - I for my part am not … you sound a bit to lazy to me (in my imaginary world)
I figured out all the issues myself, as repeated here, i’m a professional developer with some headless raspberry pi’s & synologies i know how to manage.
This is a rant on the abysmal state of the linux desktop (stable OS just losing random crucial features, relying on a vulnurable protocol for basic functionality, supporting nice to have features such as HDR & variable refreshrate (which are both decades old) being an absolute nightmare).
Hence the title being a complaint about the linux desktop being an absolute nightmare and total crap, and not “help me, i’m stuck”. I was not stuck, i can figure out the workarounds, but i was appalled at what i saw, i expected issues & struggling, but this was way beyond & below what i could even imagine.
Also evidenced by the dozen of distros i’ve had recommended so far, and conflicting advice (i absolutely do, and do not need wayland for variable refreshrates, depending on who you ask).
This is just a nightmare ecosystem to participate in, and that’s what i wanted to get across, and i think i succeeded pretty well :).
so if that’s the grande finale of yours, trying to leave your comfort zone - and you consider that as satisfying … well - i wish you all the best for your future endeavours
there are plenty of options in linux - you just gave up because your desired usecase wasn’t working out of the box … and instead of risking to learn something you decided to spread negativity and even worse, you spread incorrect information to others … hope you had your fun with that
quote: “but this was way beyond & below what i could even imagine.” - mate, you complained about not having a GUI for doing
apt install XYZ.debthe whole eco system would be so much nicer, if people would resist to spread negativity and instead become a part of the solution rather than the problem … you say, your an dev - you found some workarounds … great, what blocks you of writing some guides to some of the issues you ran into - or even do some PRs to get rid of the problems you faced
its so easy to expect that this wonderfull opensource world is doing everything what multi billion $ comanies are doing and then complain about whats not working (perfectly on first try) instead of apreciating the thousands and thousands of hours ppl are investing to get things going and having a chance of getting out of the walled gardens of windows/macOS - and if it comes to my experience - they did not only come close - they 100% replaced windows
Not really sure what to think when I see posts like this. Maybe there’s some people it’s just not for. I don’t want to be negative, but I think some folks just might not be open to it.
I’ve been using exclusively Linux for all my computing for over 3 years now. My high-end gaming PC, my work laptop that I service multiple IT clients with, my Steam Deck, my entire home lab, even my phone runs GrapheneOS. And I love all of it.
I use a bunch of different distros, Manjaro, Nobara, Ubuntu, Alma, Fedora, Mint, Lubuntu, with different desktop environments, apps, services like SMB, NFS, DHCP, Apache, TrueNAS, Jellyfin, various gaming servers for Minecraft, Arma 3, Valhiem, etc.
I play scores of different games, online Mutiplayer, single player, indie, AAA, retro titles. I do all my email, ticketing, business accounting, invoicing, banking, Discord, matrix, social media, personal email, browsing, printing, scanning, streaming and editing on Linux. There’s literally nothing I do in my personal or business computing that runs on Windows, not even in a VM.
I just don’t really know what to tell folks that claim that Linux just doesn’t work for desktop use. My systems are more stable than Windows, more customizable, easier to update, configure, and troubleshoot. They run faster, and are quicker to install.
I just switched my parents to Linux Mint this holiday season and they’ve had no problems, all their basic computing needs Linux handles perfectly and runs better on their super old hardware than Windows ever did.
My friends and I love our Steam Decks, use them all the time, both in gaming and in desktop mode, all Linux there too.
Idk, it has been amazing for me to be 100% free of Windows forever. I don’t miss it an all, I just wish I had converted sooner. And I’m not some Linux god who lives in the terminal all the time either, but the documentation and help from the community is endless and has helped me solve any issues I’ve had.
It’s not that i don’t believe you, but i just typed out the nice surprises i encountered while just trying some (imo basic) things on a fresh install.
the SMB thing, seriously… this is a vulnurability from 2017, and ubuntu not only defaults to this protocol, but doesn’t even have a way to disable it??
the refresh rate thingy, maybe a bit specific, but in windows it’s just a setting you enable in any app, and it works.
and the installer being “oops, we forgot to replace it”… if the ubuntu version was marked as “this is bleeding edge unstable”, i would have just taken the LTS version. but from all i can tell 23.10 is just the latest stable, that seems to be anything but stable?
This is not about “being open to it”, this is just 5 hours of googling, trying things, realizing that things that i expected to be pretty basic are just working sooo badly. and i know switching from windows would take some effort, but hours of struggling to have to end up working around a vulnurable protocol that i can’t disable, having to struggle with just getting some package installed (defeating the entire point of why these packages would be easier), and for now giving up on a nice playback feature.
And of course in this thread i’ve already had at least 3 different distros recommended with noone really knowing if the kodi usecase is supported by them because even people who use linux for everything have no way of figuring out which distro, if any, supports refreshrate switching…
you can be all “you have to be open to it”, as i’ve got multiple headless linux machines and even got some complicated stuff running on it requiring me to do some more advanced stuff via ssh and actually understanding some parts of linux. It’s not that i don’t want to learn, i wouldn’t even know how. Read the replies yourself, people are already “do you really need refresh rate switching?” (aka, we also don’t know how to figure out how to get this feature that just works in other OS’es to work in any linux distro).
I’m not expecting everything to just work, and don’t mind googling. but these were literally the 3 first things i tried on this linux, and each of them was hell… and googling for solutions was also hell with a lot of outdated advice, and regarding the refreshrates… not really much advice at all, even though htpc on linux is relatively popular & this is something that can be a known benefit to the playback quality.
And of course i’m getting downvoted for this post because posting the reality of trying desktop linux (as an experienced IT guy) is something that’s rather not seen?..
Everything I can find online for SMB version usage in Ubuntu’s file explorer seems to indicate that for the last several years mounting SMB shares defaults to version 2.0 and up already.
Idk if that’s true, I haven’t looked at the version of Samba for my own SMB shares, nothing is exposed to the web so not a huge concern for me. Regardless, sounds like a bug? Idk, you also could have tried installing a different file explorer to see if that was the issue I suppose.
I don’t understand the Kodi refresh rate issue. I’m not familiar with Kodi at all, is it supposed to set your monitor’s refresh rate to match the framerate of the video that is currently playing in Kodi?
Not sure about the installer problem you were having either. I just tested downloading the .deb package for DockerStation on my Ubuntu VM and it seems to work perfectly. Right clicked the .deb package > Open with other application > Open with the Ubuntu software install center app > Then click “install.” It installed just like any other repo package for me in about 60 seconds and it launched totally fine too.
Granted my VM is the LTS Jammy Jelly 22.04 version, but that shouldn’t matter. If it doesn’t work on the newer stable version of Ubuntu, then I would submit it as a bug report. Also, DockerStation has an AppImage package too, why didn’t you try running that if you had issues with the .deb package?
I think people are downvoting you largely because you’re using your personal experience to claim that the Linux desktop experience as a whole is terrible, which just isn’t true. At least that’s how I think it came across to many people. That’s why I listed my own personal experience, they aren’t objective data, whether good or bad.
It would have been better for you to either create a thread asking for help with those specific issues, or at least taken a more tempered approach.
Ultimately, I’m sorry your experience has been bad. I think Linux desktop just isn’t for some people, for various reasons, and that’s fine. If you’re still wanting to try it, I would suggest creating a live USB of a few other distros and testing out the same kinds of things. My personal favs are Linux Mint Cinnamon edition and Fedora KDE Plasma edition.
I wasn’t on the ubuntu machine anymore, so i couldn’t quickly find the link to the SMB issue, but you’re in luck, someone else in this thread already did (he linked it with (in capitals) WHAT THE HECK as link title): https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/samba/+bug/1697817
And he understood my frustration that such a bug would be open for about 5 years now across multiple major versions. :) . Now i’ve manually mounted some of the shares, the file manager suddenly also uses a better version of SMB to fetch the shared folders and it suddenly works. But this should take googling & terminal work to just explore a network share from a desktop environment.
Right clicked the .deb package > Open with other application > Open with the Ubuntu software install center app
That’s because you’re so lucky to not be on a clean 23.10 install, since as i showed in the link i posted, it’s not there in a clean 23.10 install for some reason :). I found tons of links saying i should right click, and open it with an application that for some mysterious reason was missing on my ubuntu install :).
Known Ubuntu bug looks like for the SMB problem.
I was able to replicate the .deb issue on a fresh 23.10 install VM a little while ago. Looks like it is a confirmed issue in 23.10 also.
The Appimage file for DockerStation worked fine though. I just had to install Fuse with apt and DockerStation opened right up without issue. Any reason you didn’t use that version?
You didn’t really respond to my other comments, so I don’t really know where that leaves things. Like I said, I’m sorry your experience with Ubuntu has been bad, if you still want to give Linux a try on desktop, use Fedora KDE version or Linux Mint Cinnamon, both I’ve had great results with.
If not, then thanks for trying out desktop Linux.
If you’re getting downvoted it’s probably because you sound a bit condescending.
Anyway, most of your issues are Ubuntu issues, not Linux issues. And as you may have learned, most Linux users don’t really go with Ubuntu anymore as a recommendation. Personally, I use Fedora with as many flatpaks as possible and have a great experience.
Clicking on a deb (or .rpm) to install something is a last resort imo. Install from the package manager first, flatpak or snap next.
Variable refresh rates aren’t something I care about so I don’t know 🤷🏻♂️ but sounds very firmware/hardware dependent. HDR is just not implemented fully yet, but being heavily worked on. Linux is in the middle of the final push to switch X to Wayland which will likely fix these kinds of issues once fully adopted.
I use Podman Desktop if I need a docker ui (flatpak) btw. Also available in other ways and OS.
Yes, it’s just you.
To be honest it seems like it’s a specific problem to you. I use Linux desktop for many years and for 3 years exclusively and it’s a much better experience for me than Windows (in every aspect).
I think it’s just a lack of experience on your side. You are comparing your years of experience on Windows with a OS you barely know.
Just because you are a “power user” on Windows doesn’t mean you can handle Linux the same way.
I can tell you i don’t need any windows experience to browse a discovered network share, enable a setting in an application and have it just work, and click an .msi file and expect windows to not have removed the handler for that file type.
I get it, you like linux, but blanket statements like this are just so unproductive. “and it’s a much better experience for me than Windows (in every aspect).”. Sorry, i just don’t believe you. I’m sure you’re happier with linux for many good reasons, but there have to be things that windows did better.
Just because you are a “power user” on Windows doesn’t mean you can handle Linux the same way.
I’m not expecting that, i just wrote this after 5 hours of frustration when trying to get imo pretty basic things to work. This is not just “i clicked or installed something and it didn’t work”. I’m a developer, i’ve got many docker packages running on my NAS, i know my way around a linux terminal. This is “they didn’t work, so i started googling, then 2 hours of frustration later i settled on not being able to just browse to my network share in the file manager and mount them somewhere via some fstab editing in the terminal”. and "ffs, i just wanted to try a docker gui, how hard could it be to install a deb package which the ubuntu site itself says “deb packages are the heart of ubuntu” (ubuntu must be stone dead if that’s the heart). And the refreshrate & HDR is nice to have i guess. But yeah, i want nice things, they don’t seem such unreasonable features to request. And i wouldn’t mind if i had to follow some complicated guide to get there. It’s just after hours of googling, i’m no closer then where i started.
What exactly would be the linux way? It’s a nice thing to repeat, but how would you describe the linux way in this context? I’m a new linux user, i want kodi to switch my display to the correct refreshrate when i play a movie. I want to follow the linux way, what is that way?
I think I’ve already informed you in another thread that .deb is not equivalent to .msi .
The former is a package of one component with its version and information about dependencies. The latter is an installer of something which is supposed to work right away.
I know it’s not literally the same, but it’s the exact same principle, ubuntu breaking installing deb packages would be equivalent to microsoft breaking installing msi packages. You do understand analogies i hope and realize that it’s often impossible to find 100% exact matches when you want to make a comparison.
I’m not talking about software present in default installation of any specific distribution, that’s their decision. I’m talking about “some error” after that.
No, it’s not an equivalent culturally.
You can put into a .deb or an .rpm package same kind of things you’d put into an .msi package, proprietary software from late 90-s and early 00-s for Linux would do that often, installing those things under ‘/opt’ . But usually it’s a usual package requiring specified versions of other usual packages, otherwise it won’t work.
I am talking about a specific distribution, the one i was posting here about, so then we can stop this thread here i guess :).
Not all analogies are helpful. Yours is actively preventing your understanding.
That’s just not true. If you give your 90yo grandma a Windows computer she is gonna struggle hard.
You are a Windows user for now. You need to learn Linux as you learned Windows years ago.
Yeah, but unlike me she isn’t a professional developer that has some experience with headless linux systems.
And please, don’t avoid the real question: What exactly would be the linux way? It’s a nice thing to repeat, but how would you describe the linux way in this context? I’m a new linux user, i want kodi to switch my display to the correct refreshrate when i play a movie. I want to follow the linux way, what is that way?
This is a case of YMMV. I hate nearly everything about Windows, but there are people who swear by it. After nearly 15 years on it, there are many things I find natural on linux that are rendered difficult for no pissing reason on Windows.
To this day I don’t understand what the difference is between the networks one can choose “Home network”, “Public Network”, etc. . Also, sporadically dying DHCP was so much fun to fix. There were some WiFi networks that worked fine on other computers, but mine just refused to get IP, subnet, and gateway, so I had to copy paste them from others.
Setting up a developer environment was incredibly annoying the last time I tried it on windows 7 because every flipping thing has to go through a GUI that you have to find first. The PATH variable is in some setting somewhere that took me ages to find and it didn’t work. Ended up configuring the IDE’s environment variable individually, but it didn’t have a console in it (very early days), so opening
cmd.exemeant trying to find the right env vars to set.I remember installing a firewall and window deciding that “no, windows firewall has to be activated now”, activating itself and conflicting with the installed firewall.
Dunno if it’s still necessary, but reg cleaners and defragging were absolutely essential back then to have a fast system for more than a year. Recently had a friend with a slow system and her boyfriend just reinstalled windows for her because he didn’t want to deal with whatever it was that was slowing down the system.
Semi-related: hardware stiff was no fun either. Printers were always a nightmare. “Install this Epson driver that installs a bunch of bloatware for free!” and you find out that the installed version doesn’t work for some reason, so you have to hunt down why it doesn’t work on your particular laptop only to stumble upon drivers for that printer by the damn laptop manufacturer.
Or laptop and desktop manufacturers that packaged their own graphics drivers and were constantly a few months behind the official drivers - and the official drivers wouldn’t work on your hardware because the manufacturer had to do something special and your were stuck waiting for updates from the manufacturer. Of course manufacturers had their own updaters that barely functioned, so all you could do was check periodically yourself or wait for a bug to appear, hunt down the reason, find out it’s an outdated driver and download it from the manufacturer.I could go on. The trauma is deep. And don’t get me started on those goddamn rainboots (Mac). That system is even worse than windows.
Anyway, all I’m saying is you had a shitty experience with “absolutely basic stuff” on linux desktop, big deal, it’s a computer. Computers and software are buggy. Nothing’s perfect. No-one claims Linux is perfect, it’s just better for whatever they are doing and they are willing to put up linux specific stuff (like the totally valid stuff you pointed out) instead of putting up with windows/mac specific stuff. Linux desktop doesn’t rub you the right way, fine. Windows nor Mac rub me the right way. That’s the way of the world. We all decide how much stuff we can put up with. Maybe this is the end of the road for you with linux desktop, but it sure ain’t for many other people.
and then added it to my fstab as a workaround
Use of
/etc/fstabis not a workaround. It’s the standard place where you add things to mount.Your problem is that you use googling, watching pictures and clicking through stuff, just like in Windows, thinking that this skill makes you an advanced user.
Instead of googling you can just read the error message, it usually sufficiently explains what the problem is.
Installing software should not change settings like file type associations, I think that’s normal. You may think differently. Somebody has made a choice which in this case is closer to my opinion, in other cases that may be different.
Of course Ubuntu just threw out the old installer for debian files, and didn’t replace it yet. Wouldn’t want a user to just be able to easily install files! what is this, windows?
This is incomprehensible.
Ubuntu does still have a GUI to install software from .deb packages, I think.
But you shouldn’t try to install packages for another distribution using .deb packages (like Debian itself), or packages for another Ubuntu version.
Unlike some software installer in Windows, a package on most Linux distributions doesn’t include dependencies, only information about them and the software itself. Say, in Windows you can have the same DLL in a 100 copies and versions if it’s not a system one. In Linux you usually have the same library installed and even loaded once.
But goddamn this desktop experience is so ridiculous, there has to be better than this right? I’m missing something, or doing something completely wrong, or… right?
Yes, you are getting something completely wrong, and it’s the culture and not some technical difference.
Though I agree that outside of repositories maybe software should be distributed not in the same packages, but like something to be put into
/opt, like in olden Linux days and more similar to your Windows experience ; GOG games’ installers do that, only use~/GOG\ Gamesor whatever you choose.EDIT: And also Ubuntu as a distribution has some downsides. Try Mageia, it’s not widely used, but pleasant. Or Fedora, everyone and their dog is using it. Or OpenSUSE, it’s kinda spiritually corporate and they have worrying plans for the following major versions, but as of now it’s pleasant.
EDIT2: Also why did you google for software in the first place? You couldn’t find what you wanted in the repositories or just wasn’t aware how it’s done here?
Ahh the favourite pasttime of the linux community: blaming the user.
See, i install ubuntu. It has this files application to brows your files in a gui. I click other sources, it detects my SMB shares, i click on one of those, and i get some vague error, i no longer have the exact error text but it was something like “item not found in list”. You feel that on a fresh desktop install clicking the files tab, and then clicking the discovered network share, and expect it being able to handle a protocol that got exploited in 2017 being disabled, and then throwing an error “item not found in list” is me just randomly clicking around expecting a windows experience and me not being able to read error messages? You’re so far off the mark that it’s not even funny anymore. Yeah, i’ve got a dozen containers on my synology with proper permission management and shared users between those containers, properly exposing some to the internet, and having set up watchtower to automatically update everything to keep it secure since i’m such a windows user that doesn’t know anything else…
Ubuntu does still have a GUI to install software from .deb packages, I think.
dude, CLICK THE LINK I GAVE, IT DOESN’T. and what do you mean install a package for another distribution. https://dockstation.io, see the link “download for ubuntu/debian”. I’m just doing what the first application i thought of trying tells me. Or do the developers of linux apps themselves have no clue how to support the most popular distro? According to you that may be the case, but that’s not my fault then.
And why did i google software? i entered “docker” in the package manager but didn’t find much, so i thought i’d give google a try. also to get some reviews/experience of people trying the applications, i could blindly try packages, but reading some user experiences makes the choice easier.
Ahh the favourite pasttime of the linux community: blaming the user.
“The Linux community” in general understands that you are not “just dumb” or a “noob”, but you are unfamiliar with the way things are done in Linux, your Windows experience is useless for that, and you should be informed of that.
Now some Windows-savvy people thinking that not being able to navigate their junkyard is being a “noob” seem worse for me.
click on one of those, and i get some vague error, i no longer have the exact error text but it was something like
Unlike on Windows, errors here are usually informative, and “something like …” is useless. We can’t trust you to determine if it’s vague or not.
dude, CLICK THE LINK I GAVE, IT DOESN’T.
The article advises you to install GDebi from repositories (with a nice GUI) to do that. Have you done that?
and what do you mean install a package for another distribution.
You should install a package for Ubuntu on Ubuntu and a package for Debian on Debian. The package filename extension being .deb and its format being .deb doesn’t mean it’ll work on any system using .deb . Yes, it may.
Or do the developers of linux apps themselves have no clue how to support the most popular distro?
Developers usually care most about the distribution they themselves use.
And if something isn’t in the repositories of the most popular ones, it means the developer of the application doesn’t care to maintain it there and nobody else cares.
According to you that may be the case, but that’s not my fault then.
Your fault is treating it wrong. If others don’t need it and you need it, why cry that desktop Linux sucks? Maybe it sucks for you, well, sorry.
Unlike on Windows, errors here are usually informative, and “something like …” is useless. We can’t trust you to determine if it’s vague or not.
Yeah, i’m a developer, the error i got was about as helpful as “nullreference exception”. I found the issue was the SMBv1 default by googling the exact error. Here it is for you “Failed to retrieve share list invalid argument”. Really helpful message :).
The article advises you to install GDebi from repositories (with a nice GUI) to do that. Have you done that?
Yes, and then got stuck since that tool failed to find something called gconf2 that is a dependency. Then i followed command line install instructions that also gave errors. Which the instructions found perfectly normal and expected, they said to then run an apt command to fix it, but then apt would just uninstall the application again (which i guess ‘fixes’ a botched installation).
But you find it normal that the application normally handling .deb files on linux just disappears on a popular beginner distro, and to install something i have to start googling and avoid all the links telling me to use the built in application that suddenly disappeared, to then find that one link that tells me “yeah, ubuntu made a huge mistake here, here’s how you fix it”.
Sorry, but this is just abysmal user experience. And yeah, i’m a developer, i can find my way around command line tools, but for something this basic? for real?
Your fault is treating it wrong. If others don’t need it and you need it, why cry that desktop Linux sucks? Maybe it sucks for you, well, sorry.
So i should expect every little thing to be a minor or major struggle, with the rich ecosystem of linux apps be so fragmented to mostly just work on the distro the developer uses, which you have to guess since they might still mention your distro on their website, even if they don’t really properly support it.
If treating it wrong means not making linux my hobby, and just wanting to use it like i can with my headless servers, then it’s indeed not for me. And yeah, i’ve head my moments of frustration with my synology/raspberries. But most of the things i want to do on them do work from the first try, and if a gui is offered, it just works. If that’s too high of an expectation, then you just come across as delusional for me. I don’t expect everything to be perfect, but for it to be this bad in 2023 just seems ridiculous. And maybe i just happened to land in a perfect storm of things that don’t work on ubuntu being the first things i try. But then being like “maybe linux isn’t for you”. I’m a professional developer running multiple headless linux machines and a dozen docker containers for various things. If it isn’t for me, who is it for O_O…
and to install something i have to start googling
To install something you have to install it from the repository, and not download something from some webpage.
If you do the latter and encounter problems which you don’t know how to solve, that’s not someone else’s fault.
Most likely there was some version conflict or your system wasn’t multilib (didn’t have 32-bit Intel compatibility repositories enabled and certain packages installed from there), while the thing you downloaded was for 32-bit Intel.
i’m a developer, i can find my way around command line tools
That doesn’t really require one to be a developer, it’s like saying “I can find my way around 3-button mouse”, but OK.
So i should expect every little thing to be a minor or major struggle, with the rich ecosystem of linux apps be so fragmented to mostly just work on the distro the developer uses, which you have to guess since they might still mention your distro on their website, even if they don’t really properly support it.
Not “every little thing”, just every little thing with such a developer.
And maybe i just happened to land in a perfect storm of things that don’t work on ubuntu being the first things i try. But then being like “maybe linux isn’t for you”. I’m a professional developer running multiple headless linux machines and a dozen docker containers for various things. If it isn’t for me, who is it for O_O…
The issue is you resist others trying to point out your mistakes. And that “I’m a professional developer” attitude invokes suspicions really.
And note that I’m not saying a particular distribution is fine. I actually use Void, in some sense because of the issues with some more “user-friendly” or smart things.
Maybe you should try that or Gentoo (which recently got official precompiled binary packages on its mirrors, so you don’t have to compile everything) or Arch. May actually be easier.
Or NixOS, it’s a more “modern” thing with declarative configuration etc, I haven’t used it, so can’t give advice, but maybe with the way you seem to use lots of devops tools it will feel ideologically familiar.
To install something you have to install it from the repository, and not download something from some webpage.
Ah yes, i should have known better than to rely on the documentation of the website of an application i should install. Do you guys really consider this a sane ecosystem? I google what kind of apps there are for what i want. I find the site of one i want to try, it says “here is a deb package for ubuntu”, and then hell ensues. And when i share this experience your reaction is “you should have known better” O_o… yeah no. This is just insanity. If according to you even the developers of applications fail to send their users in the right direction on how to get their application installed, there is probably little hope for a mere user like me.
Well, go blame the developer of that application for failing to do things right.
Why would consequences of their actions somehow affect the sanity of the “ecosystem”?
That the ecosystem seems so complex that even developers don’t know how they should recommend their users should install an application. Haven’t encountered that yet on windows. And i’ve had plenty of people here tell me “yes, you CAN install deb packages, and many apps will GIVE you deb packages, and the ubuntu page says Debian packages is the very HEART of ubuntu. But you’d be insane to install something like that”. Does that sound like a good ecosystem, where people aknowledge that the best way to do stuff is ignore everything app developers & the makers of one of the largest distros say, and do the opposite and ignore apps that you can’t install in the way that i should magically know is the best way.
I stand by my words man, but you’re free to try to convince me :).
Booooo op Boooooooo
Edit:get off the stage
If you need VRR on a Wayland environment, you might want to try Kubuntu or the Fedora KDE spin (as examples). There’s also Sway, but a tiling WM may not be what you’re looking for.
VRR isn’t currently implemented on GNOMEs mutter (though it is actively being worked on).
You can patch mutter with the VRR work yourself (using a copr on Fedora, and perhaps a PPA on Ubuntu), though I wouldn’t recommend it.
Thanks for the suggestions :). I think in about 50 replies you’re the first that’s like “hey, maybe there is some way to get VRR working on linux”, and not be like “why would you want that? just ignore the stuff that doesn’t work on linux”.
I’m probably going to stick with windows a bit longer for now, and i’ll give it another try when i read that wayland is a bit further along since it sounds like what i need, but is still in its infancy.
That’s fair enough. I don’t know if I could wholeheartedly recommend the Linux desktop to just anybody, but I really have been enjoying fedora for a good few years now.
I work in parallel to the gaming industry (IHV) and VRR on Linux (under wayland) is something I’ve been pretty excited about. It’s been functional under KDE Plasma for some time now (and for Sway even longer). I’ve tested the previously mentioned mutter patch on fedora 38 and it worked surprisingly well, but I believe they’re still mulling over the UX (I.e. how this feature should be exposed to end users in the settings UI). Community driven UX design & consensus is hard.
As for the maturity of Wayland, you may find differences in implementation depending on the desktop environment. I believe KDE plasma’s inplementation is a bit further ahead than gnomes, and your experience with Wayland under such an environment should be fairly comprehensive, though I don’t expect you to have to test individual DEs, so don’t take my word for it.
I personally prefer gnome with a couple of shell extensions so I’ll have to wait for it to catch up, though in typical use, it seems to do pretty well.
I use Linux Mint on several NUC-style computers. I even use it for servers even though it is a Desktop. Based on Ubuntu but it does fewer stupid things. I run many docker containers. Run Plex in docker. Can’t speak to the refresh rate in X. Wayland is coming, but it will be a while.
Mint is here to fix the bullshit that Canonical is too corporate trash to fix themselves. Ubuntu is just popular out of leftover reputation from 10 years ago that came along a strong marketing campaign. Today Ubuntu is garbage even for server applications.
Same, switched to Mint years ago and never looked back. Ubuntu is only a bit less annoying than windows these days.
From my current experience, Ubuntu seems a lot more annoying. Ok, it spies less on you but at least windows mostly works :p
Because comparing Windows and Ubuntu is comparing a 3 decades old pile of trash with a 10 year old pile of trash. But they’re still two piles of trash.
Use arch, EndeavorOS, Debian, pop!OS, fedora and you’ll see the immediate difference. How Canonical is more kin with MS and Oracle than with the FOSS movement.
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You need Fedora in your life. Problem solved.
Linux just isn’t for you. Stick with what you know and never consider that you might just not be as savvy as you think outside of Windows. No shame in that.
I’ve been on Fedora for a few years now, and been using some kind of Linux as primary for over 15 years. Your experience sounds like something from a few years ago.
If you haven’t tried Fedora yet, I’d highly recommend it over Ubuntu, which is likely one of the bigger cause of your issues.
My rule of thumb has always been, get something from a major manufacturer that is not bleeding edge, so I can be sure driver support is there. That has served me well, and I also usually buy devices that area certified for Linux. That being said, Ubuntu has really jumped the shark and I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the result of someone messing up some snaps in some way.
Maybe the refreshrate issue could be driver related, but hardware decoding works. And intel 13th gen is 2 years old now, it’s not as if i’m on bleeding edge hardware. The other 2 issues (SMB & installer) aren’t even hardware related at all.
And from what i’ve read the past years, hasn’t linux support for newer things improved a lot? Ok, if a new cpu/gpu releases, maybe wait a couple of months for linux to be stable, but 2 years should be fine these days right? I don’t think any of my issues are related to hardware support.
Yeah, I learned that lesson when I’d just built my computer. I was so stoked to see how Linux had changed in the past 10 or so years I’ve not been using it as a daily thing. Absolute disaster. Turns out it was because my CPU just didn’t jive with the kernel. A newer kernel and everything worked smoothly.
Sadly I still mostly use Windows. I want to fill my last NVME slot and give it another go.
It’s not you.
Out of innocent ignorance and bad suggestions you just chose one of the worst distributions (anything from Canonical) with the worst UI (Gnome).
Learn and just try again, that’s totally okay.
If you want to stay in the deb ecosystem I’d suggest Debian with KDE Plasma. Don’t let people tell you Debian is outdated or old or something, they are just uninformed. Plasma is also very advanced with VRR and HDR in the process of being finalized or already done.
Most distributions offer a live image so you can try them out in a virtual machine without going through installing every one on your hardware.
Gnome is fantastic, KDE is buggy as hell.
I made the same jump about 4 months ago. I had a long history of running servers and trying Linux desktop here and there and finding it lacking. I installed Ubuntu because that was the popular distro for the past 15-20 years. I gave it a month. It blew. Bugs and general broken shit that I had to constantly repair. I finally gave up and figured if I was going to spend time tinkering with every goddamn thing, I may as well be using Arch. Installed Arch and I’m having a much better time. I still have to troubleshoot and fix the odd broken thing, especially after package updates, but it’s less tinkering than I’ve had to do with either Windows or Ubuntu. I’m not saying Arch is your answer, but I bet it’s “not Ubuntu”.
