This doesn’t even make sense from an administrative standpoint. The purpose of government identification is identification. If I can’t update my driver’s license to make me easier to identify then the entire purpose of having a gender on the ID card is moot
It gives cops an excuse to arrest (and beat up) trans people on charges of false ID.
Edit: spellingOh absolutely, it’s just meant to out us to every cop that sees our ID so they can decide to ruin our day. They won’t actually admit that, though.
If you’re going to make a stupid argument, at least use the right “beat.”
What’s the point of the law then? You seem to have the answer so please enlighten us
To benefit the dominant humans at the expense of everyone else.
That’s the only reason it’s ever been around. You were just bamboozled into thinking it was about enforcing universal principles.
This is a weak justification, but here is a strawman:
If a person is involved in a firey buscrash, it is helpful to the coroner to know what biological sex someone was born as to help with identification (different bone structures etc).
To tear that strawman down again, there is absolutely no reason that the drivers licence couldnt show their gender, and the authority could also track their sex in their system.
Of course, this is Florida, the answer is obvious, they are doing it to fuck over trans people…
I understand that not being able to change forms of ID can cause problems for trans people, but if I were trans, I would be terrified to out myself to the state of Florida. I feel for my brothers and sisters affected by this bullshit.
That justification gets even weaker when there’s no fire in the lethal crash. They’re not looking at burned skeletons, they’re just looking at corpses.
Also! Skeletal differences are actually minimal in people who transitioned at a young enough age, so that wouldn’t even be helpful in their case.
Yeah, its a weak justification, but worth lining up, so that it can be knocked back down.
In this strawman, the point is to be prepared for the worst case, which would be skeletal remains only.
The skeletal differences being minimal depending on the age of transition is interesting, do you have a source? Id like to know more.
Of course that gets even muddier for this strawman, because the authority could make up arbitrary rules like “If you transition before X years old, you can change your official gender”. Which ends up essentially the same as the “when is it life” discussion, and we all know how that panned out.
The defining skeletal differences are mostly in the pelvis, which undergoes much of its development in puberty. Intervention in those years should allow for trans teens to develop along affirming physiological lines, rather than being mutilated by a dysphoric puberty.
Buuuuut I did overstate my case, though; such early treatment is still on the rarer side, so it doesn’t look like there’s definitive answers on how that impacts skeletal development. We can draw conclusions, I think, but the literature is mostly focused on the psychological development rather than looking at physiology.
Yeah, possibly needs more research. I read something about bone density being mostly unchanged, but that may also be intervention age dependant as well. Also, as a fairly contentious issue, the literature is also prone to biases.
Thanks for your response though, I appreciate it :)
If a person is involved in a firey buscrash, it is helpful to the coroner to know what biological sex someone was born as to help with identification (different bone structures etc).
Yeah… no. The bone structures aren’t that different. It’s more likely that anthropologist can’t identify the sex by bones alone than they can. I also can’t think of a different reason for it, but there really doesn’t need to be a reason for them to just be bigots.
The pelvis is absolutely different, do you have a source that claims they can’t tell the difference?
https://naturalhistory.si.edu/sites/default/files/media/file/wibskeletonmaleorfemalefinal.pdf
There are stereotypical differences between the two, yes, but it isn’t as obvious as just having male and female bones. It is often unable to be determined based on bone structure alone, and historically there has been a lot of misidentification from this.
https://psmag.com/social-justice/our-bones-reveal-sex-is-not-binary
Interesting read.
Link to the paper: https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5579&context=utk_gradthes
I would have said it isnt always obvious, but yeah, humans exist on a spectrum.
When was trying to find articles about this topic I kept hitting “trans people don’t belong in sport” type articles, which have a very clear bias. Thanks for the link :)
How are they going to verify your gender?
Well, what is the function of having sex/gender on an ID? It’s to make someone more identifiable, right?
That means that “verification” only needs to be visual. The purpose is to be able to tell, at a glance, that the ID and the person are a match. That’s why eye color and height are on there too. Precise record keeping is for the court house and hospital records, not a driver’s license.
By using sex and making that unchangeable it actually makes my ID less useful for identifying me.
And if someone wants to change the sex/gender on their ID and nothing else, with the explicit intention of becoming less identifiable?
This process is already gatekept, to my knowledge. In my state, changing your legal gender id or name requires going through the courts and a substantial amount of legal paperwork - even if you do so without a lawyer, there are some substantial fees associated with that process. Not to mention if someone wanted to become less identifiable, they probably wouldn’t want to do that in a way that is available as public record. Personally, I’d probably just get a haircut - they’re a lot faster and a lot cheaper.
Additionally, banning everyone - especially banning exclusively trans people - from fixing their documentation is not a reasonable solution to your hypothetical problem, a fact so obvious anyone arguing in good faith almost certainly would have caught it.
You had an opportunity to educate me. You chose instead to insult me. I’ll carry on with my ignorance then. Thanks for shoring up my position.
Then they’d get harassed by cops for having a suspected fake ID and have to go through the trouble of proving its their actual ID.
Like I am going to be when we get a law like this.
Wouldn’t this come into conflict with REAL ID? Florida is currently REAL ID compliant.
Federal docs like your passport are used in verifying your REAL ID, and generally, the names need to match.
I mean this is true but there should be a known grace period where you can show the cop some sort of medical procedure will be affecting the data on your passport in the coming year. I’ve followed some such transitions and can be a period of several years actually. So maybe the state and federal governments should have a sex change license or application like they do for marriage. That way everything is legal.
I’ve had to carry around proof of my transness for years before I got to change my documents. It’s not really fun having to expose your medical history to that random dude over there because you’re trying to buy alcohol with an ID that says “female” and you have a full beard. It’s humiliating and could even be dangerous if you happen to hand your ID to a raging bigot that’ll now know you’re trans
Yeah this is such a good point. It’s like being a second grade citizen.
In our small-brained baboon-butt red state of Utah, the “esteemed” legislatures just passed a bill making it illegal for trans people to use public bathrooms. I guess that means trans people can shit wherever they want to in public.
This kind of nutjob small brained bigotry is ruining our country and embarrasssing us gloablly. Other countries see these anti-human laws and realize we’re crumbling and don’t really stand behind our American “values” or our consitution.
This kind of nutjob small brained bigotry is ruining our country and embarrasssing us gloablly. Other countries see these anti-human laws and realize we’re crumbling and don’t really stand behind our American “values” or our consitution.
You would hope this is the case but in reality the right-wing nutjobs everywhere just copy/paste US culture war idiocy, usually even without making the slithest necessary adaption to make them fit.
There was a documentary on LGBT rights in I think Nigeria and they were showing an interview of the religious leader talking about why being gay was an abomination etc etc. along with a guy who was for those rights.
The religious leader, in a very thick African accent says, “It’s Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.”
One of the points that the film was making was how conservative think tanks actually try to push their agenda outside of the US. Because you sure as hell know that religious leader didn’t come up with that argument on their own.
Nigeria is not my idea of a well educated country anyway - and their very deleterious and harmful view of human sexuality is no doubt skewed by years of intervening stupid “christian” missionary shit being shoveled at them.
And that religious leader (who obviously is about as bright as a toothpick) is wrong. IT IS ADAM AND EVE, AND ADAM AND STEVE, AND ADAM AND EVE AND STEVE AND GENEVIEVE. According to the bible, the “lord god” made them ALL.
Conservative think tanks are nothing but excremtental “Its” that stink excuses. We have a particularly vile and nasty one here in Utah called “the Eagle forum.” And everyday their ultra conservative and embarrassingly under-educated members are on TV spouting off about the harms of sex education and of teaching kids anything other than white nationalist history.
THIS is the cesspool that America and the world has become. These are the nitwits and nutjobs who get heard, not the people who really have intelligence and compassion and understanding and smarts.
It’s true that the right wing nutjobbery has been copy pasted all over the place, many countries I once respected and considered visting are now dungheaps in my view. America has failed, that much is clear - the American experiment is over. My family is leaving, we’ve decided to go to a south American country where cost of living is easier and we can watch America die from a distance.
Religion, especially in the United States, embarrasses us all.
It truly is the most evil thing that’s ever been invented. There is nothing has ruined and destroyed more lives than religious nutjobbery.
Just use the bathroom anyway and if they try to arrest you, just sue them and/or shoot them.
I would recommend nonviolent protest but these people don’t care and thus can’t be manipulated by such means
That’ll be an easy civil rights win, but still symbolic of how pathetic we’ve become as a country.
I guess that means trans people can shit wherever they want to in public.
You gotta get schwifty!
Idk, Utah’s pretty decent. Its definitely modernizing sowly but still stumbles, like your example I didn’t know what you were talking about, so here’s the story for anyone else
Basically, people are supposed to use the “sex assigned at birth” in government/public school buildings.
Shits fucking dumb, but I bet nobody is checking ids at bathrooms and nobody has to shit on the streets. I hope they revert this dumb law but I think I think honesty about situations is important.
At best, anyone who voted for this bill is too dumb to be writing the rules for society, and at worst, it’s deliberate in its cruelty.
So you’re probably right, and they won’t have an armed guard doing genitalia pat-downsvat the intrance, but what about the person who has worked somewhere for a few years and is just now transitioning? Now, at least 4-5 times a day, they’re reminded that they are less-than in the eyes of the government. If they try to use the restroom for their assigned sex, they end up looking like they are using the wrong restroom to anyone who doesn’t know their story and worried about a dangerous encounter with law enforcement. If they try to use the restroom for the gender they present as, they have to worry about anyone who does know their story forcing an encounter with law enforcement.
100% think fuck the law, its an embarassment.
Guess I just hate how exaggerated things get online nowadays. So much more productive to have an honest conversation rather than say " I guess that means trans people can shit wherever they want to in public" imo
Utah sucks monkey shit. It’s the worst place in the world to live, and I’ve lived in third world countries with open trenches for sewers. Utah stinks to heaven above, and is the #1 spot for corruption and legislative stupidity in the entire world.
Utah stinks, and so do all the baboons in charge here. And once I live, I will slam that door and NEVER look back, Utah can sink back into the sewage of salty brine it rose out of for all I care.
Another proud moment for Christianity
I don’t think the IDs need sex on them. A name, a picture, a number, birthday, height and what sort of vehicles you are licensed to operate.
If it’s that divisive, remove the field. I do not have a women’s driving permit, I can drive the same things my husband can, it’s not used for anything related to its function. A picture gives more information on identity, then if someone transitioned they could go get a new one and it would identify them correctly.
Like if my banking doesn’t require a gender to make a transaction why should my driver’s license.
Next up: Florida creates Women’s Driving Permit, only pink vehicles and engines below 120cc. Men on the other hand need a vehicle greater than 150cc with a hood high enough to no longer need to see children, as that is women’s business.
Doesn’t have to just be gender, trans people often change their name too as part of the transition. Also sex =/= gender
The article specifically mentions changing the gender and nothing about name. Lots of people get name changes for various reasons, but it’s a whole process.
I tried to read through it before commenting yet I still missed that, my bad
So how is this law enforceable? Isn’t the gender marker change through the state itself? I obviously assume they’re going to stop providing the changes, but what about people who have already had it changed? Or is this meant to punish trans people from other states traveling to Florida?
Inevitably a cisgender woman who does not meet enforced standards of femininity will get arrested for this. Or trans men who have not changed their gender marker. Violence against queer people and cis women is the intention.
I can absolutely see someone with androgen insensitivity syndrome (female with XY chromosomes) getting thrown in jail for this.
I think the most pertinent question these days is why is sex listed on a drivers licence anyway? If it’s referring to phenotype why does anyone I give my ID to need to know what genitals are in my smallclothes? If it’s referring to chromasomal makeup why the hell is that relevant to the guy at the liquor store?
If it refers to gender then the consideration becomes that you can’t always intuit gender from presentation so that’s hardly good at creating any benefit for visual identification.
ID is an issue in general for non-binary people. Here in Canada your passport and licence have to match but getting an X gender marker on your passport means your documents have a solid opportunity to subject you to travel discrimination and whether or not that ID will even be accepted abroad becomes a serious and sometimes peicemeal question.
The question of “should we allow changes of sex on identifying documents” is kind of missing the point. We should be talking total abolition of registration of sex on drivers licences.
It’s supposed to be gender but Florida is wanting to change that.
I think changing it to “Sex?” will result in a lot of responses being “Yes, Please”.
I have always wondered the same. Why does gender matter? Why is race sometimes included in documents?
It all feels very much like 19th Century thinking where the place and date of production are the most important aspects of your being.
Conservatives can all go fuck themselves.
WTF?!
Ok, this is obvious, but this is just messed up.
That’s going to help with their uninsurable homes and crime!
The article states they simply need to enter their sex when filling the forms. The headline is not supported by the article.
Sex is not as useful of an identifier for a government ID as gender.
If I go missing and they tell people to be on the lookout for a male, I will never be found.
Which is irrelevant to the fact the title is not supported by the info in the article. Transgender people are free to get and renew a driver’s license in Florida. They need to enter their sex on the form, not their gender.
As I understand it transgender people were able to change the sex on the form and now we can’t, so that headline is completely accurate. Yes, that’s not how sex works, but the reason we could do it before is because it made our government IDs useful for identification.
Now when a cop sees the male identifier on my ID he’s just going to harass me for having a “fake” ID. 🙄
If I get pulled over in Florida, as a burly dude with about three inches of beard and chest hair that doesn’t like to stay inside a t-shirt, what do you think the cop is going to do or say when they see an “F” on my drivers license? Do I need to out myself to the grocery store clerk every time I want to buy a beer?
