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  • Nadya@kbin.social
    5843·
    2 years ago

    Well of course they aren’t genocide deniers. You can’t deny something that never happened. Also note that they did not deny being Tankies - they denied being Fascists. Tankies don’t recognize themselves as Fascists and will vehemently deny that they are. Here’s another phrase for Tankie for the uninformed: Red Fascist

    Here is one of the Lemmy devs denying that the Uyghur genocide in China is happening:

    https://old.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/xq49ct/deleted_by_user/iq954mu/

    The Uyghur genocide is as real as white genocide. - Source

    Here they are again denying it:

    https://old.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/xq49ct/deleted_by_user/iq951cv/

    The holocaust was a genocide that actually happened, with all the evidence that goes along with it. There is no Uyghur genocide.

    Do you believe in anything as soon as the word “genocide” gets attached to it? What about “white genocide”? Are you a white genocide denier? - Source

    And just so nobody can deny that parentis_shotgun is a Lemmy dev: - “I’m one of the devs of Lemmy”

    Direct links to the posts will not work but still exist on the user’s profile page: https://old.reddit.com/user/parentis_shotgun/ - hold PgDn until comments stop loading then Control+F. In fact feel free to peruse their history in general - it’s quite interesting.

    One of my favorite posts is their defense of the government of North Korea in /r/AskTankies: https://old.reddit.com/r/asktankies/comments/tb1836/okay_but_dprk_seriously/i04d1wu/

    Now ask yourself why would someone who is not a Red Fascist Tankie piece of shit be answering questions on behalf of Tankies in /r/AskTankies while defending a totalitarian regime? Is it… perhaps because they’re in support of such a regime because they are in fact a Tankie piece of shit?

    They also lied about the “single user on Mastadon not providing sources”. They did provide sources. The source were things said straight out of the dev’s mouth.

    Let’s play a game of spot the difference between fascists (nazis) and fascists (tankies).

    Nazis: Fascists who are directly responsible for the deaths of an estimated 12,000,000 people. Deny a genocide ever took place despite evidence to the contrary (Holocaust). Antisemites who forced minority ethnic groups to work in forced concentration and labor camps and starved them to death. These concentration camps began in 1933 and ended in 1945 lasting for a period of 12~ years. Had a secret police known as the Geheime Staatspolizei (Gestapo) whose job it was largely to suppress political opposition by any means necessary including execution of dissenters and spy on behalf of the Nazi party. Torture and execution were common - including that of women and children.

    Tankies: Fascists who are directly responsible for the deaths an estimated 26,000,000 people. Deny multiple different genocides ever took place despite evidence to the contrary (Holodomor being the most well known). Antisemites who forced minority ethnic groups to work in forced concentration and labor camps and starved them to death. This Gulag network of death prisons began in 1919 and only ended after Stalin’s death in 1953 lasting for a period of 34~ years. Had a secret police known as the Чека (Cheka) whose job it was to suppress political opposition by any means necessary including execution of dissenters and spy on behalf of the State. Torture and execution were common - including that of women and children.

    • Merlu@kbin.social
      1·
      2 years ago

      It’s more nuanced than that.

      1. The first head of state to use the term genocide to describe the Uyghur as genocide is the Trump administration, that is to say, a regular in fake news who disregards human rights, which casts serious doubt on his humanitarian motivations.
      2. To be called genocide, an oppression must comply with specific criteria such as a desire to eradicate a people, the current situation is more a disproportionate repression under the pretext of struggle against terrorism than a desire of eradication.
      3. Inappropriate use of the term genocide can be harmful, fuel international tensions that could lead us to a new cold war and complicate struggles against real genocides.
      4. As said in the point 1., the states who accuse China of genocide aren’t really care about human rights, and had no problems with exactions from China when they were commercial partners. Stating that China is doing a genocide is only a way to weakens the said state as it become recently our commercial rival. Other exactions and genocides are happening in many places in the world in full indifference from the very people who pretend to care about the Uyghur’s fate, Uyghur whom they had not been shy to qualify as terrorists in the past.
      5. Deny the Uyghur doesn’t mean a unconditional defence of China.

      More details in an article written by Jeffrey Sachs, Special Consultant to the Secretary General of the United Nations, who cannot in good faith be qualified as chinese communist party sympatizant.

      • Nadya@kbin.social
        1·
        2 years ago

        A year and change after that article the OHCHR finally published an assessment.

        The report remains largely inconclusive of the issues of Uyghur women through involuntary procedures(d), targeted mistreatment and torture of the Uyghur people (b), and working to abolish both their language and religion which together would help constitute the argument that a genocide is taking place. However it did seem to draw conclusive evidence that mass violations of human rights were taking place.

        • (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
        • © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
        • (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

        I’d be more apologetic to this argument of “It isn’t genocide - but only mass violations of human rights targeted at the Uyghur people!” if that was actually the defense being used by Tankies. But this isn’t the defense Tankies use. They claim nothing bad is happening at all in the VETCs and that it is entirely Western propaganda and that no systemic violation of human rights is happening as a result of the State’s policies. Which is in contradiction with the UN report in § VIII. Overall assessment and recommendations.

        The nature of the violations certainly can follow under “pattern of conduct” and, as mentioned in the article, proving anything in court can be incredibly difficult. Especially when the actual laws and statements put out by The State are intentionally vague and open to interpretation (as the OHCHR report makes mention of). This means The State can openly deny that the policy was intended to be genocide while being complicit in it by turning a blind eye in how officials have implemented the policy.

        And again - China would not even be the first country to utilize such a political strategy. Where a policy is ostensibly meant for one purpose but is predominately used for an entirely different purpose that The State is complicit in because the “other purpose” was always the intended purpose. See also: The US Patriot Act.

    • Ashyr@kbin.social
      817·
      2 years ago

      Great post and I really appreciate bringing the sources to the discussion.

      I know some people don’t have an issue with the developer’s views, so long as it doesn’t affect their software, but I’m not comfortable using Lemmy. I wouldn’t be comfortable using a Nazi developer’s software either.

      • Omega@sh.itjust.works
        121·
        2 years ago

        You would be surprised how many genuinely amazing pieces of software you use / rely on on a daily basis the developers of which you don’t politically align with.

        I agree that separating the artist from their art is not (always) easy, or even possible. However, in the case of Lemmy you can actually separate yourself from the influence of the creators (for example by defedarating from any instance they have control over), in the worst case scenario, where even the software itself would include these kind of biases, parts of the community could literally fork the codebase and remove all the problematic parts.

        • Ashyr@kbin.social
          2·
          2 years ago

          That’s a fair point and something I’ll need to keep in mind. There are plenty of game developers I’ve walked away from over the years because of their views and behaviors. While I’m sure there are plenty who’ve never said the quiet part out loud, I’ve divorced myself from those who do.

          I’m no programmer and I understand that open source is a significant shield against weighted algorithms and behind-the-scenes shenanigans, but I also know where Lemmy’s roots lie, not just the developers, but the initial communities they created.

          To me, kbin already feels like a fork I’m happy with. I’m not trying you be dogmatic, but for now, this is where I’m comfortable.