Image text: @agnieszkasshoes: “Part of what makes small talk so utterly debilitating for many of us who are neurodivergent is that having to smile and lie in answer to questions like, “how are you?” is exhausting to do even once, and society makes us do it countless times a day.”
@LuckyHarmsGG: “It’s not just the lie, it’s the energy it takes to suppress the impulse to answer honestly, analyze whether the other person wants the truth, realize they almost certainly don’t, and then have to make the DECISION to lie, every single time. Over and over. Decision fatigue is real”
@agnieszkasshoes: “Yes! The constant calculations are utterly exhausting - and all under the pressure of knowing that if you get it “wrong” you will be judged for it!”
My addition: For me, in addition to this, more specifically it’s the energy to pull up that info and analyze how I am. Like I don’t know the answer to that question and that’s why it’s so annoying. Now I need to analyze my day, decide what parts mean what to me and weigh the average basically, and then decide if that’s appropriate to share/if the person really wants to hear the truth of that, then pull up my files of pre-prepared phrases for the question that fits most closely with the truth since not answering truthfully is close to impossible for me.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CvPSP-2xU4h/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Serious question from a non neurodivergent. Why don’t you tell the truth? What’s wrong with that?
Sorry, just for me to understand because I have no experience
Imagine if you’re working as a cashier and you say to your customer, “hey, what’s up?” and then they start a ten minutes monologue about everything that’s happened to them today and how that’s made them feel. You’re just sitting there like “I’m at work, I’m just being polite, you’re holding up a line of customers, I’ll get in trouble with my boss for being so slow, etc.”. All you wanted was for the customer to say “Yeah, you?” and move on.
In the UK and America, and probably most places, saying “how are you?” or “what’s up?” is the equivalent of saying “hello” or “I would like to start a conversation with you” – it’s very rare that you actually want to know about the other person’s day. For a lot of autistic people though, we take those questions literally.
Edit to add: you can’t always assume that people don’t care about how you are. Got in trouble with my doctor for just saying “fine” when he was actually asking what is wrong with me. So it always feels like you have to make this calculation of what does the person really mean? I understand that neuro-typical people just sort of magically know the context in a way that autistic people don’t - I think it’s just a lived experience where we both have to say “I don’t understand how that is, but I trust that it’s the way you experience things” and move on.
And what’s the problem to always reply “not too bad”, as if it was a normal greeting? Without thinking, as if saying “hello”. Why is it difficult?
Again, asking to understand
@Zeth0s @Worx “not too bad” is what i do (where “too bad” implicitly means death)
unless i’m receiving a call in which my response is “what’s up?” which is ambiguously either (a) responding to a meaningless pro forma question in kind, or (b) expressing immediate interest in knowing what the call is actually about
@apophis @Zeth0s @Worx but the fact that we even have to think that much to establish the patterns like that… oof
But also very similar to my answers as well
I just added an edit that addresses exactly that as you were typing :p
The truth is that neuro typical don’t even consider the context. We say something along the line to “not too bad, and you?”. We just know that doctors and parents want a longer more detailed version.
To doctor the longer version, to parents the diluited version (otherwise they get worried).
Basically this is the rule. We think of it as a synonymous of “hello”, same meaning different spelling
Then why don’t you just say hello if you meant to say hello?
No idea, even hello what does it even mean? Just an empty word to exchange the information that you recognize the other person and that you don’t dislike them.
Any combination of sounds recognized by the interlocutor is fine for the purpose.
One can say “hi”, “what’s up”, “how is it going”, “how are you doing”, “ciao”. Each of the has a combination of sounds expected as response to understand that the interlocutor doesn’t dislike you as well. For the “how is it going” “what’s up” type of greeting, response is “not too bad and you?”.
It is just how language evolves. Someone found “hi” was outdated, and moved to “what’s up”. I guess gen z moved to something else again.
@Zeth0s @SRo it’s because we fundamentally process language and interactions in a different way, our brains aren’t wired for “small talk” or non-meaningful communication. Also the example earlier of context mattering where sometimes they might be asking with sincere interest and it can be catastrophic to fall back on a pattern like that.
And that’s simply because we’re either following an unnatural pattern that we’ve jury-rigged together from years of painful trial and error or we’re thinking much harder about the words being said than you are.
We call this masking and it’s a severe drain on our mental resources every single day and it’s why it’s claimed that we have a social problems (claimed because those problems completely disappear when interacting with fellow autistics, they’re considered problems only because the majority expect us to do all the work of accommodating them and none of the work themselves).
Also, hi/hello are different from “what’s up?” and “how’re you?” despite being used the same by allistics (non-autistics). Hello is purely an acknowledgement, it doesn’t even need to lead to a conversation, it’s just basically saying “I know you are there and recognize you as a person”.
Think of it like this: if you’re in a dark house and hear a sound… do you say “what’s up?” or “Hello?”
The others are formalities, evolved originally from real interest eventually into empty phrases. It has a lot to do with how allistics connect socially vs autistics.
We’ve recently begun to unravel the fact that allistics connect their social interactions and relationships to their identity while autistics connect values and actions. Because of that, I believe allistics put a lot more meaning into the form of an interaction than into the actual things accomplished in it.
“How’re you?” was originally an expression genuinely asking someone about their day, a genuine expression of caring. However, since it became associated with caring it eventually became a formality, a shape of conversation in which “Hello” became seen as cold and uncaring… so everyone changed their patterns of speech for it and felt it much warmer… despite dropping what actually made it warm.
Us autistics however, we often struggle with casual lying because we care intrinsically about our actions, even the small perceived as meaningless ones. When we ask how someone is, we have the intent of asking that question.
Small talk is all about the “form” of the interaction. It’s tied to allistic identity in that allistics typically seem to define themselves by the forms of their interactions. Autistics however couldn’t care less about the form if nothing actually happens in it because we tie our identity to the actual things happening.
An allistic might consider themselves caring if their interactions take a caring tone and form… and they’re often right (but not always, there’s always that person everyone humors but can’t stand). An autistic however might consider themselves caring based on the individual elements of the conversation, what was actually talked about and what happened during the conversation (ie. the person opened up, became less stressed, you got an update on what was going on, you were able to share inspiration, etc)
Best comment in this whole post
This is a highly cultural thing. Where I live, cashier (great example) are told by the manager to not speak with the customer. The interaction is just “Hi!”, the price, “Thanks! Bye!”.
It’s just respect and politeness. I don’t practice small talks at all. People don’t care about it. It’s not their business.
To illustrate, how it is here. People don’t make friends outside secondary school or universities depending on the degree they have. I know people who still have the same friends for 50 years. People are not open.
Maybe cashiers shouldn’t ask questions they don’t want the answers to
The truth about how I am? Because they don’t care. They don’t actually want a long infodump about personal details of my life.
I just give short honest answer. If they are interested - might turn into a good conversation if not, I don’t care. But I’m also not neurodivergent - just not too much into small talk.
Because people get weirded out and start to exclude me when I start a 10min monologue on my emotional state and life situation instead of “I’m fine, thanks”
I have a solution for you. Move to a small city/town of south of Europe. You’ll get 15 minutes monologue as a reply to your 10 minutes monologue. If you are talking with some older lady, 20 minutes of detailed description of age-related physical struggles.
That’s how old style social networks are built there. That’s actually pretty nice, once one get used to it.
Drawback, no jobs there and you need to learn a romance language
Try this one: “I’m fucked up, you?”
No need for a monologue, just go tit-for-tat. If they care, they’ll keep talking, if not, then no loss.
@jarfil@lemmy.world @Shialac@lemmy.world @apophis@mycrowd.ca I try to change it up, legitimately like “Are you hydrated?”
Some of these are more confounding than “how are you?” (are you… implying my heart is not… like … red?) but asking actual questions to greet people is a really nice thing that I’d love to see more widely adopted:
@jarfil @Shialac “How are you?” “Forever hating that question, you?”
The Truth? About how I am? How the heck am I supposed to do that? I suppose I could tell you my general level of energy. I could tell you the character of my thoughts and what sort of things caught my attention recently. I could think back to when I last had a clearly identifiable emotion, what I was thinking at the time, and if it’s still relevant. I could tell you about physical sensations in my body - do I feel tense, is my head clear, is my pulse elevated, are my ears ringing, how grounded do I feel? Or how I’m experiencing the outside world - how is the temperature, the humidity, the light, the noise? I could think about things that happened recently, or where I am now generally in life, or my worries or ideas for the future, and does any of that relate to how I am in the here and now. And eventually, maybe, after far more intimacy and far more uncertainty than you’d likely be comfortable with, I might tentatively offer some emotional label as to how I am.
Can’t vouch for its accuracy tho. I just inhabit this brain, I don’t know everything that goes on here.
But what about a general mood. Are you able to recognize one? Like “today is a sh*tty day” or “I feel good because I’ve eaten an ice cream”. Just to understand
Sometimes. Generally no. Not without the work I outlined above.
As I understand it, people usually have an innate sense of affect - their general energy level, and valence - how positive or negative they feel. More specific emotions are basically narratives - I feel X because Y and that’s called Z. Well I can sense my affect, but my sense of valence is pretty murky most of the time. So coming up with those narratives is hard work, and I rarely have much confidence in them.
(Oh, and please don’t take this as a general guide to ‘what autism is like’ because, 1) I’m not diagnosed, and 2) ND experience is very diverse)
Your descriptions reflects my experience quite accurately (and I am diagnosed, AuDD). I usually try to be vague on purpose when answering how I am, or give non-answers (such as “I [simply] am”).
Thanks for clarifying :)
Nobody gives a shit about either of those things, which is why 99.9% of people just say “fine” or “good.” I honestly don’t even know why this is a neurodivergent thing, is a US society/culture thing.
So much this!
It’s just a greeting. The proper response is “fine, and you?” The person will dig deeper if they wanted a bigger answer.
I live in Sweden. If you ask anyone here how they’re doing they will give you a detailed account of how they’re doing.
It was really confusing for me when I went to the US and I had to tell every store employee about my aching back due to the hotel having a soft bed and the cold I got from the airplane AC.
Because no one wants to be trauma dumped on, especially when they don’t have a way to escape (working).
I think it comes up to the culture you’re in and the specifics of the situation. I often hear the question asked on call in shows from the US where it seems most people say it as basically a greeting, not always pausing for a response before continuing. In my own culture we don’t ask as much and usually only of people we have a bit more of a connection to. I imagine that the cultures represented in the talk shows would pressure one into answering in a way that doesn’t hold up the conversation. This also applies when you are already exhausted, the reasoning there just being that an honest answer will prolong the conversation and probably require talking about emotions which at least to me can be exhausting on its own.
Because it will make people uncomfortable and we will be scolded or face negative consequences at work
Then the standard answer to not answer is “not too bad, and you?” <wait for answer, ignore answer>, finally: “Nice to hear, see you!”.
That’s it, it’s like “hi” “hi” “bye” “bye” but longer
Yes I know, this is the lying
In Italian goodbye is arrivederci, that literally means “see you”. You are not going to see again a random guy at a highway gas station. Still the greeting is “see you”. This is how language work. Use of certain sentences evolves. It is just an agreement between parts.
“how is it going?” “not bad, and you” “not bad” “nice” “see ya”.
The meaning of the sentences is hi hi bye bye. No lying, both know the meaning, because someone thought them. When I went to UK someone explained me, if someone want to learn how it is done where I live, I’ll explain them. The goal is to demonstrate that people don’t dislike each other. How it is done is a cultural agreement
Your comment and responses feel a bit odd. They feel a bit antagonistic even though you acknowledged this space is for autistic people.
For me, I’m like how OP stated. Every time i am asked i have to analyze my day, compare it to past days, try to figure out how I feel (try doing that while also being alexithymic), and if I am overstimulated then that adds another layer of restraint because people do not want someone to say something like, “REAL GOOD!! DID YOU KNOW I JUST FOUND OUT THAT—” and go on a tirade for 5 or 10 minutes about the new hyperfixation or interest we have.
I also have a hard time lying. I don’t see the point of it. Why lie about my day? And if the answer is non important, why ask? It makes no sense to me. And keep in mind you are using an Italian example and mine is American. Two vastly different cultures and expectations.
Sorry I looked antagonistic, I was just here to chat. I didn’t see the community I was in, really. I saw the post on all feed and I wanted to engage.
That post is how I explain things. I am a bit pedantic unfortunately. Didn’t want to hurt anyone.
Also, if it helps, I would be very happy to hear 10 minutes about a topic someone is interested in. I like passionate people. I actually feel sorry for people who don’t talk passionately about something.
You can say “it’s going”, or “ehhh”. You don’t have to lie, just don’t dump all your problems on them
If I don’t go with a standard “Fine, thanks” I’ll go with “Better than most, not as good as some”. It’s not a lie, but it’s not saying much.
Yes we understand that but the point is that ND folks don’t automatically know which version is appropriate. Our brains tend to go through an algorithm manually each time, where NT people are much more automatic like you’re suggesting. It’s like if someone with executive function issues like in ADHD and autism told you they struggle to remember things and you tell them to “Just write it down” or “just put it in a calendar 😀” as if this is some kind of new trick they haven’t thought of. This is one of hundreds of daily examples where ND people have to manually go through the mental list of appropriate social protocol that for NT is just somehow magically instinctual.
The point of this post is to highlight one of the many ways that things are more difficult, challenging, exhausting, annoying, frustrating for ND people. This post was made in the autism community to commiserate with other ND people and discuss amongst ourselves, not to educate NT people.
But since I am procrastinating at work and have the spoons, I’ll take a stab at helping you understand. But I would appreciate if you would recognize the imposition you make coming in asking to be educated.
Imagine if for every thing you did all day you couldn’t remember how to do it or even what to do when and instead had to manually pull up a check list of steps to take to accomplish that thing, but also the pencil you used to write the list has been smudged so you can’t really read everything on the list, and when you wrote the list you misunderstood the instructions so the check list is unreliably correct. And the check list has sub points so if this then that, else this other thing. So every thing you need to do every day of your life instead of being automatically pulled up subconsciously by your brain and just done, you had to go through this list and figure out each step new each time.
For ND people, to varying extents, this is how we live for real. And it adds up in impact, but we don’t get a break. And when you’re already overwhelmed and exhausted, each time you have to pull up the checklist and figure out what to do you get worse at it. And it’s stressful and embarrassing to have to check the list each time, especially because often times you mess it up because you can’t read every line clearly or you wrote it down wrong last time.
There’s no solution, there’s no tips or tricks to help. There’s no medication to fix this problem or skills we can learn to make this problem go away. It’s how our brains are wired. We would rather live differently. But we live in societies that have chosen not to educate themselves about different neurotypes and refuse to accommodate any differences.
Instead the “weird” guy at work who is too quiet but then goes off on a coworker because they didn’t follow some stated rule off the workplace, that everyone knows don’t actually matter even though it’s never been said out loud, and why does he have such a stick up his ass, what a loser let’s be mean to him now because he’s obviously not deserving of our understanding or respect for being such a weirdo.
Or that coworker who wears headphones at her desk and is always calling out sick from work. I heard she asked to work from home, who does she think she is? how lazy can you get amirite? Something about being distracted by noise and The overhead lighting, she needs to suck it up! We all get by just fine, why can’t she? And we like chatting with each other over the cubicle walls, she needs to loosen up.
I struggle to remember things a loooot, and actually a calendar with multiple notifications really helps. It’s a trick to overcome the struggle. Same way as I struggle to write by hand, so writing with a simple text editor (emacs, vscode) in full screen mode helps me a lot. Another trick that works
I am old enough that adhd wasn’t even a thing where I come from, unfortunately.
What I am trying to say is that there is an easy algorithm to apply in this case that can be implemented:
I am not saying this will help you or anyone, but this is the algorithm I use
This comment is really condescending. Not only did OP explain how it is related to biology, they even used your examples to describe how there isn’t a skill or trick to “fix it”. On top of that, you decide to give (unsolicited) advice.
This is an extremely typical experience most of us have. We try to explain something, and then we have a neurotypical ignore what was said and tell us how easy something is if we just do it THEIR WAY.
Sorry, I didn’t thought it was condiscending tone.
As a general experience if someone highlights a problem, other people replying with tricks on how they manage the same situation is not a problem. It is a way to chat as any other. That was my intention, just chat
Understood, I recognize my ignorance btw. Sorry if anyone felt offended
We all know what to say. Since you didn’t understand anything I just said I’m tapping out. Please don’t comment in here again until you’ve taken more time to read and listen and observe.
Edit. I didn’t notice the community. This appeared on my “all” feed and I was just commenting as if it was any other thread.
I am sorry if someone may have felt offended.
I just wanted to casually chat, not judge, maybe help someone (who knows). I won’t be commenting further
I apologize for my previous comment. It felt like you might be trolling and refusing to listen to explanations given to you by saying the same thing
You don’t need to apologize for an accident, man! Do you and comment as much as you want, it’s a free website. Don’t let this pickle person tell you what you can or can’t do
Maybe you don’t understand how super creepy the deception is, and that it’s normal somehow for people to pretend to check in with each other while being not only disinterested, but offended if you actually need a real check in.
The point of a society is that we actually care about the well being of each other. We don’t fake it.
It’s worse now that advertising is in everything and friends are hooked into MLMs and religions sometimes, so any veneer of well-wishes may be a dark pattern covering an ulterior motive.
Only if one considers the meaning of the words. But language evolves. “What’s up” nowadays is just a different way to say hello.
In my language, “see you soon” is used as goodbye, even if you are not planning to see this person anymore. The Italian translation of goodbye is arrivederci i.e. “see you”. I am not going to see again 99.9% of people I said goodbye, they neither. It’s just how language evolves. Language is just an agreement on meaning of sounds
You keep telling us (and yourself) that you’re only trying to understand but you keep acting like you’re trying to fix.
Condescending as fuck tbh.
Actually I had a very good reply from @shiri that allowed me to understand, unfortunately I can’t reply them because of some lemmy issue with language settings.
I didn’t want to look condescending, it was just to chat about different experiences, about language, meaning of words. Just chatting
Sorry if I sounded otherwise
Counter-proposal:
“I see you, don’t be alarmed, I don’t want to kill you”, “I see you too, don’t want to kill you either”, “Now I’m going to turn my back, and go away”, “I’m going to turn my back too, we go our separate ways”
That’s the old west version. Doable, we can work on that!