Hey all, I got a question recently about trans rights in China. I wanna make sure I answer the question correctly so I came here. I would just look it up myself but it’s impossible given how filled to the brim the internet is with Sinophobic lies.
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this looks like a private message; if so, unless the sender wanted you to show it, please blur the username
That’s an ask on Tumblr. If OP responds. It’ll be up on their blog, with the question askers blog attached.
thanks – no blurring necessary, then
I guess I’m going to summarize what I’ve read in this thread than add an opinion on the general rhetoric.
China does have some shit laws on the subject, but (perhaps mostly both the government and the average person) lacks a fascist-driven ideological framework that is very common in the US. You will assume everything is worse than Southern US States or Nazi Germany for no other reason than that reactionaries love making it sound that way, because there is almost no one on the English speaking internet loud enough to debunk them over their digital megaphones. Well meaning parrots will parrot the only thing they hear on the subject. Other comments on this thread go over how it is not as bad as the Southern US States.
I think that future historians will note that some technology or element of an (post?-)industrial society, made faster by a socialized internet, leads most not-yet-LGBT-friendly societies into adoption of LGBT rights. The current rhetoric around the subject forgets that the US has had decades of modernization progress ahead of China on various subjects. China is caught up on manufacturing in general, China will most likely catch up on several specific technologies (CPUs) soon enough. There is no reason to believe that China will not catch up on LGBT rights in the same manor, in very short order.
The 2022 Cuban Family Code referendum sets a favorable precedent that LGBT rights under AES is likely next on the natural cultural progressions of civilizations.
China does pay attention to US politics and will notice things, such as anti-LGBT rhetoric being primarily rooted as a religious/fascist construct in modern US politics. I think they are much more likely to perceive it this way going forward than what others may have historically presumed, which was something like “LGBT rights is Capitalist decadence/influence”.
I’m predicting, that by 2030, most people megaphoning “China bad on LGBT” are going to be very embarrassed, both because of progress abroad and regression at home.
This is just anecdotal, but I visited southern China in 2019. I don’t have broad knowledge of Chinese society, but I went to a bunch of DIY style punk shows around Shenzhen and there were tons of cool queer folk there. I ended up talking with a trans man for a while with my broken Mandarin and his broken English. Told him I’m an American who greatly admires China and he thought that was cool.
Yeah, there are a bunch of very open trans and gay folk in China, but maybe that depends on where you go and what strata the people belong to, I guess? It’s not at all like what westerners claim, where they say it’s completely illegal to be trans and all trans media is censored. I didn’t see that at all. I met a bunch of trans people who seemed to have very ordinary, normal lives.
There’s probably room for improvement, but that’s everywhere in the world. I don’t live in China though so I don’t fully know what struggles there are
The Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS) and Transgender Hormone Therapy (THT) articles on Baike wiki includes the current situation in China. From what I’ve read in these two articles, THT is less “standardized” than SRS, and the former cannot be used as a basis to change your legal sex.
What I mean by “standardized” is that the National Health Commission has published standards for SRS in 2017 and updated them in 2022, the same cannot be said for THT. Here are the criteria in 2017 and 2022 for someone who wants to undergo SRS: (translated with DeepL)
2017:
性别重置技术管理规范（2017年版） – 三、技术管理基本要求 – （四）手术前手术对象应当满足以下条件：
- 对性别重置的要求至少持续5年以上，且无反复过程。
- 术前接受心理、精神治疗1年以上且无效。
- 未在婚姻状态。
- 年龄大于20岁，具备完全民事行为能力。
- 无手术禁忌证。
Translation: Code of Technical Management for Gender Reset (2017 Edition) - III. Basic Requirements for Technical Management - (d) Pre-surgical surgical candidates should fulfill the following conditions:
- The [request/need] for gender reset has lasted for at least 5 years without a recurrent process.
- Received psychological and psychiatric treatment for at least 1 year prior to the surgery and is ineffective.
- Not in the state of marriage.
- Be older than 20 years old and have full capacity for civil behavior.
- No contraindications to surgery.
2022:
国家限制类技术临床应用管理规范（2022 年版） – G05 性别重置技术临床应用管理规范（2022 年版） – 三、技术管理基本要求 – （四）手术前手术对象应当满足以下条件：
- 对性别重置的要求至少持续 5 年以上，且无反复过程。
- 未在婚姻状态。
- 年龄满 18 岁，具备完全民事行为能力，有能力完成性别重置序列治疗。
- 无手术禁忌证。
Translation: National Code of Practice for Clinical Application of Restricted Technologies (2022 Edition) - G05 Code of Practice for Clinical Application of Gender Reset Technologies (2022 Edition) - III. Basic Requirements for Technical Management - (d) Pre-surgical surgical objects should fulfill the following conditions:
- The request for gender reassignment has lasted for at least five years without a recurring process.
- Not in the state of marriage.
- Have reached the age of 18, have full capacity for civil behavior, and have the ability to complete the gender reassignment sequence treatment.
- No contraindications to surgery.
Note that the updated criteria in 2022 removed the need for previous psychological and psychiatric treatment, and lowered the age requirement from 20 to 18.
There were two nationwide studies on the transgender community, conducted in 2017 and 2021, and problems with medical support in China was mentioned in the published findings.
Back to the question about access to estrogen, since there does not seem to be any national standard for THT, and 雌二醇 (Estradiol) is prescription medication, I would guess that it is indeed hard to get estrogen.
The user also mentioned that this is the only thing stopping them from moving to China, I think they’re underestimating the challenges in emigrating to any foreign country in general, especially a country with a strong national identity like China.
Not in the state of marriage.
This is disappointing, especially since same-sex couples are not allowed to marry. They are essentially purposefully and cruelly soft locking a person out of marriage entirely.
The requirement for sexual reassignment surgery to legally change genders is also disappointing, since that can possibly do more harm then good, as a significant portion of transgender individuals either do not want to complete a full course of reassignment surgery, such as only doing a mastectomy but not bottom surgery as a trans man; or do not want to undergo any surgery at all. So forcing the person to undergo surgery and become dysphoric with their body, or give up hope of legally changing their gender is disappointing.
Hopefully the sex change surgery requirement is dropped soon, Japan dropped a similar law in the Fall of 2023. Same goes for the marriage requirement.
Received psychological and psychiatric treatment for at least 1 year prior to the surgery and is ineffective.
That is also a very gross requirement. Psychiatric analysis is vital, but trying to be “treated” by a psychologist for a year to even be considered transgender is backwards.
Wow that update is a solid improvement in just five years, dang. The removal of the psychiatric requirement is huge to me. Why has the “Not in the state of marriage” bit stuck, though?? Is that just because of complications since same gender marriages aren’t acknowledged legally?
Yeah, I think there would be a very huge loophole in marriage laws if someone is able to change their legal sex while being married.
Is there a way we can get these pages on ProleWiki comrade
You mean as articles to describe part of the situation in China for the transgender community? The Baike articles are slightly outdated as the SRS page does not include the 2022 update I mentioned, but they were useful as leads to search on.
My understanding (but happy for more information if anyone has it) on the oestrogen thing, is China in the last few years increased restrictions on pharmaceutical medications across the board. Previously you could buy most non addictive (opiates, benzos et) online without any prescription. Antibiotics. Blood pressure medication, whatever. This is included oestrogen. They would also ship these overseas.
Now it’s harder because you need a prescriptions and there’s other rules. So it wasn’t so much some officials saying “How do we make trans people’s lives harder” but more them bringing what had been a rather laissez-faire situation into regulations more in line with most other countries in the world (Europe, Asia etc). But it did materially affect trans people in China and globally.
Being able to buy anything nonaddictive online sounds rad though :/
Idiot question: Would chinese citizens have any access to gray market chemist stuff online like we do here, or would international trade shenanigans/internet restrictions make that impossible?
I think it depends heavily on where you are, since there is at least one dedicated transitioning institution and other institutions that support transitioning, but then there are other places with virtually no support. It’s definitely something Cuba is better about.
A relevant comment by Kristina from 9 months ago: https://hexbear.net/comment/4000176
I’m gonna copy-paste it so that it lives forever (yes i am a juche necromancer)
It’s similar to the USA but they don’t have a hate mob going after trans people cause they hunt fascists down for sport. There are many very positive interactions with trans people on national TV and they don’t stir shit about “the controversy” like in the West. Discriminatory remarks against any group, including gay and trans people (upheld explicitly for LGBT people by some law according to the Peoples Daily) isn’t allowed on national media and is strictly enforced. The media culture generally is very positive versus controversy seeking in comparison to the West.
Also, no overt genocidal shit like Russia or Florida or something. Just general ignorance and knowing little about trans people. From what I’ve read from advocacy groups they think awareness has gone up a lot recently and they believe there will be a big shift in LGBT laws in China by 2030ish when the old cohort retires from the CPC
And Cuba has the best LGBT laws on the books and they did it in short work after their old cohort died off, wouldn’t be surprised to see China do similar
Really want to emphasize the hunting fascists down for sport part. There are online communists like us that, as a hobby, track down and report online fascists to the police, and there are tangible records of arrest from them doing that. I actually got in touch with one of these people and asked them about the LGBT situation among the youth and they seemed very positive about the progress.
I’ve also talked with some rural trans chinese people and there is a very unfortunate and depressingly limited access to HRT outside of tier-1 cities. From what I understand, no one really becomes homeless like they do in the USA, housing is very cheap. Its also relatively easy to move to tier-1 cities, and there is a support network of trans people that help people do this and have lists of supportive doctors like they do in the USA. Self medicating is unfortunately very common outside of tier-1 cities, the black market, interestingly, is online and you must buy a potted plant that has HRT in a plastic baggie in the dirt (wild, there are lots of gardening jokes in trans spaces as a result). Phytoestrogen cocktails are also a common way of self medicating and there are guides online to make highly estrogenized teas. There are also menstruation products sold in pharmacies with high amounts of progesterone and estradiol and require no prescription, so they take these as well. Spironolactone and cypro are usually prescribed by dermatologists in China, so if you are sneaky you can get a dermatologist to prescribe them for acne and take over the counter birth control, though this option is still relegated to cities that do not have doctor shortages.
Legal transition is a bit depressing, it has roughly the same laws as most southern states (re: you need surgery for gender marker change) and it also requires your family (!) to sign off on it and nullifies any marriage you currently have (like pre-gay marriage America). I do know there is a trick to get married to some trans person and then designate them as your family for the signature (and then the marriage will be nullified, so many friends do this), and you can ask your doctor to verify you had ‘the surgery’ (nebulous definition, like in America) and get your marker changed via that without surgery. This requires knowing a trans accepting doctor, which there are lists for.
Too bad lemmy’s search function is broken we had a lot of discussion about it in the past
Bumping for visibility
Good thread.
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