After months of getting close, the relationship between Trump and his so-called ‘first buddy’ has become ‘fraught,’ according to a New York Times reporter
The intent is to say something that will antagonise Trump. The intent is not to demean women.
Attacking someone who shares your moral platform because you purposefully misinterpret their words to suit a separate agenda is friendly fire.
Transphobia and misogyny are not to be tolerated, do you really think that someone attacking turnip (autocorrect, I’m leaving it) online doesn’t share your views on this?
Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.
I think you’re right about all this. Just wanted to add that this joke is (a little) funny because it simultaneously points out that trump and Elon are misogynistic and kind of gleefully watches them squirm about it, since you know they are also reading it in their own social media feeds.
If someone is offended by this joke, I would agree it’s kind of hypersensitive but more importantly they are missing what the joke means at all. They noticed concepts they get upset about and not really understood how the concepts are being used.
Tldr; This joke is funny because it points out these assholes’ bigotry and taunts them with it. It kind of trusts the audience to see that the entirety of the joke is inherently mocking someone for being a bigot.
Haha I’ll take that encouragement! I appreciate you speaking up too. I have tried this kind of pushback before and it’s too easy to get mobbed with accusations of being an awful person, so I tried to tread lightly to avoid a completely pointless hatefest. I think it also speaks to Lemmy and maybe my blocklist that that didn’t happen here. On reddit I’m 99% sure if people read what we wrote we’d get flooded inboxes saying we’re just trying to justify transphobia/misogyny/etc.
Why are trans people’s feelings less important than feelings of people making jokes online?
I don’t want to be arguing here either, that’s why I’m politely letting folks know that these sort of jokes may alienate their allies. You don’t have to do anything with that information if you don’t want to! Don’t engage with this at all, and feel free to let me know what material good you’ve done to fight for trans rights in the time saved, will you?
They are not just jokes. People posting these things are doing so specifically to antagonise the right.
I’m telling you that your concern trolling is alienating allies.
I have chosen to engage in this just like you chose to deal with the blowback when you posted it.
All I have done to “fight for trans rights” is to speak out when I can, challenge bigotry as I am challenging you right now, stand up and be counted at queer marches/events and raise a daughter who took the only trans kid in her high school to prom.
You don’t know my life and that isn’t the discussion. Stop deflecting and learn to focus on intent.
I’m also in favor of the viewpoint that the “First Lady Trump” joke was fine. Just felt the need to comment on the last point; I’ve had that sentiment before too, but I’ve also seen danger in the idea that “Because my intentions were positive, I shouldn’t be criticized.” That’s been a defense used by bigots, too. eg, Trump throwing paper towels to disaster victims (even though he certainly didn’t have to take time out of his day to throw paper towels, gee, how nice he is!)
I’d like to hope that in the past 30 days I’ve never said anything racist/bigoted - but I’d also acknowledge the possibility that despite my positive intentions, I may have. It’s only important because these days very few people think themselves to be bigots. Think about the type of person most likely to say things like “I’m not racist!”
I don’t put much stock in post votes, but I don’t think a majority popular comment that the person I was replying to already agreed with is, uh, getting blowback. Honestly you seem to be the most hostile one here. If you’d read any of the lovely conversations I’ve already had with folks here, you’d understand that I haven’t blamed anyone for this joke, I am simply communicating what I have heard in the community, and I don’t have any expectations of changes in behavior as a result of this.
It’s not bigotry to call out jokes on the internet, btw. For someone fighting a war on behalf of us all I’d figure this would be lower priority!
I’m going to stop responding to you since you don’t seem to be engaging with the intention to actually listen to minorities, ciao!
I don’t put much stock in post votes, but I don’t think a majority popular comment that the person I was replying to already agreed with is, uh, getting blowback.
I see at least 3 people pushing back and I see you deflecting in each case. Since you seem keen to ignore those comments but mention the upvotes you got originally, it definitely does seem like those matter more to you than the reasonable points being made counter to yours.
I’d figure this would be lower priority!
This is false framing. You’re wanting people to think that they’re prioritizing some dumb joke over real lives getting impacted. Considering the number of suicides that happen amongst comedians as just one obvious sign that people use humor to cope with how fucked up life can be, I’d say humor should be higher priority than it is in society currently. And we obviously don’t need to hurt people’s feelings for humor to exist (already hearing you typing something about that), but if something so benign is elevated throughout society as inappropriate to say, less jokes happen, and frankly more suicides happen (and yes I also hear you typing about trans people having a higher suicide rate – I am aware).
Just as a personal example, I’ve had pretty bad depression for years now but recently started rewatching Malcolm in the Middle again. It’s felt so good to laugh and makes a big difference in my mental health. Due to its age, the show is littered with jokes you could pick apart entirely and remove every sliver of joy from if you wanted to. But since the show makes it incredibly obvious that there’s a good heart behind all those jokes, I chose joy in this case. Joy isn’t something to belittle as just some stupid joke if the criticism levelled actually can prevent countless other (mostly) harmless jokes.
Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.
Isn’t that what you’re doing by telling trans people to put up or shut up when ‘allies’ use transphobic/misogynist insults against ‘enemies’
How are we supposed to know that we won’t just become the next acceptable target for misogynistic/transphobic abuse if/when we end up on liberals ‘enemies’ list?
Trump and Elon are buffoons, it’s not hard to mock them without tolerating misogyny to do so.
Well the truth is as the world goes down the shitter you’ll lose allies anyway. People don’t care about these issues when they have to worry about shelter and food.
I don’t think the people being misogynistic to some rich assholes on twitter are worried about shelter or food.
That said I also don’t see how the fact that fair-weather allies will eventually abandon their positions when things get hard is a case against having standards for behavior in the here and now.
It isn’t tolerating misogyny, it’s pointing out misogyny and ridiculing misogynists.
It’s OK if you don’t like how that’s being done, and it’s OK if you can’t understand the nuance but policing my speech unchallenged is not what is going to happen.
I think I got the nuance behind ‘bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?’.
I’m trans, and like actually hate these people, they deserve ridicule. However, if I’m willing to tolerate bigotry on my behalf towards people that are in some out-group, there’s no guarantee that some day I won’t be among that out-group and subsequently targeted by that type of bigotry. Do you understand the issue I’m raising?
I can’t tolerate people misgendering Caitlen Jenner or Blair white because while they suck, it only contributes to an environment where that type of insult is then considered acceptable.
I think I got the nuance behind ‘bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?’.
Nope.
It goes like this: ‘bigoted man is bigoted because this will aggravate his orange tits. If bigoted man was not bigoted it would not be possible to rip on him like this.’
Put another way: ‘I am a bigot, said John.’
If that doesn’t clarify it then I’m out of patience to explain further.
The intent is to say something that will antagonise Trump. The intent is not to demean women.
Attacking someone who shares your moral platform because you purposefully misinterpret their words to suit a separate agenda is friendly fire.
Transphobia and misogyny are not to be tolerated, do you really think that someone attacking turnip (autocorrect, I’m leaving it) online doesn’t share your views on this?
Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.
I think you’re right about all this. Just wanted to add that this joke is (a little) funny because it simultaneously points out that trump and Elon are misogynistic and kind of gleefully watches them squirm about it, since you know they are also reading it in their own social media feeds.
If someone is offended by this joke, I would agree it’s kind of hypersensitive but more importantly they are missing what the joke means at all. They noticed concepts they get upset about and not really understood how the concepts are being used.
Tldr; This joke is funny because it points out these assholes’ bigotry and taunts them with it. It kind of trusts the audience to see that the entirety of the joke is inherently mocking someone for being a bigot.
Frankly I think you’ve put it better than I did.
That’s exactly what the joke is about.
The punchline is: ‘they are bigots’, not: ’fuck trans people and women’.
Appreciate you.
Haha I’ll take that encouragement! I appreciate you speaking up too. I have tried this kind of pushback before and it’s too easy to get mobbed with accusations of being an awful person, so I tried to tread lightly to avoid a completely pointless hatefest. I think it also speaks to Lemmy and maybe my blocklist that that didn’t happen here. On reddit I’m 99% sure if people read what we wrote we’d get flooded inboxes saying we’re just trying to justify transphobia/misogyny/etc.
Why are trans people’s feelings less important than feelings of people making jokes online?
I don’t want to be arguing here either, that’s why I’m politely letting folks know that these sort of jokes may alienate their allies. You don’t have to do anything with that information if you don’t want to! Don’t engage with this at all, and feel free to let me know what material good you’ve done to fight for trans rights in the time saved, will you?
They are not just jokes. People posting these things are doing so specifically to antagonise the right.
I’m telling you that your concern trolling is alienating allies.
I have chosen to engage in this just like you chose to deal with the blowback when you posted it.
All I have done to “fight for trans rights” is to speak out when I can, challenge bigotry as I am challenging you right now, stand up and be counted at queer marches/events and raise a daughter who took the only trans kid in her high school to prom.
You don’t know my life and that isn’t the discussion. Stop deflecting and learn to focus on intent.
I’m also in favor of the viewpoint that the “First Lady Trump” joke was fine. Just felt the need to comment on the last point; I’ve had that sentiment before too, but I’ve also seen danger in the idea that “Because my intentions were positive, I shouldn’t be criticized.” That’s been a defense used by bigots, too. eg, Trump throwing paper towels to disaster victims (even though he certainly didn’t have to take time out of his day to throw paper towels, gee, how nice he is!)
I’d like to hope that in the past 30 days I’ve never said anything racist/bigoted - but I’d also acknowledge the possibility that despite my positive intentions, I may have. It’s only important because these days very few people think themselves to be bigots. Think about the type of person most likely to say things like “I’m not racist!”
And they are telling you that your lack of empathy is alienating a different set of allies. Those who you seem to claim to be allied with.
I mean, this is 101 stuff.
https://www.healthline.com/health/intent-vs-impact
I don’t put much stock in post votes, but I don’t think a majority popular comment that the person I was replying to already agreed with is, uh, getting blowback. Honestly you seem to be the most hostile one here. If you’d read any of the lovely conversations I’ve already had with folks here, you’d understand that I haven’t blamed anyone for this joke, I am simply communicating what I have heard in the community, and I don’t have any expectations of changes in behavior as a result of this.
It’s not bigotry to call out jokes on the internet, btw. For someone fighting a war on behalf of us all I’d figure this would be lower priority!
I’m going to stop responding to you since you don’t seem to be engaging with the intention to actually listen to minorities, ciao!
I see at least 3 people pushing back and I see you deflecting in each case. Since you seem keen to ignore those comments but mention the upvotes you got originally, it definitely does seem like those matter more to you than the reasonable points being made counter to yours.
This is false framing. You’re wanting people to think that they’re prioritizing some dumb joke over real lives getting impacted. Considering the number of suicides that happen amongst comedians as just one obvious sign that people use humor to cope with how fucked up life can be, I’d say humor should be higher priority than it is in society currently. And we obviously don’t need to hurt people’s feelings for humor to exist (already hearing you typing something about that), but if something so benign is elevated throughout society as inappropriate to say, less jokes happen, and frankly more suicides happen (and yes I also hear you typing about trans people having a higher suicide rate – I am aware).
Just as a personal example, I’ve had pretty bad depression for years now but recently started rewatching Malcolm in the Middle again. It’s felt so good to laugh and makes a big difference in my mental health. Due to its age, the show is littered with jokes you could pick apart entirely and remove every sliver of joy from if you wanted to. But since the show makes it incredibly obvious that there’s a good heart behind all those jokes, I chose joy in this case. Joy isn’t something to belittle as just some stupid joke if the criticism levelled actually can prevent countless other (mostly) harmless jokes.
Isn’t that what you’re doing by telling trans people to put up or shut up when ‘allies’ use transphobic/misogynist insults against ‘enemies’
How are we supposed to know that we won’t just become the next acceptable target for misogynistic/transphobic abuse if/when we end up on liberals ‘enemies’ list?
Trump and Elon are buffoons, it’s not hard to mock them without tolerating misogyny to do so.
Well the truth is as the world goes down the shitter you’ll lose allies anyway. People don’t care about these issues when they have to worry about shelter and food.
I don’t think the people being misogynistic to some rich assholes on twitter are worried about shelter or food.
That said I also don’t see how the fact that fair-weather allies will eventually abandon their positions when things get hard is a case against having standards for behavior in the here and now.
It isn’t tolerating misogyny, it’s pointing out misogyny and ridiculing misogynists.
It’s OK if you don’t like how that’s being done, and it’s OK if you can’t understand the nuance but policing my speech unchallenged is not what is going to happen.
I think I got the nuance behind ‘bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?’.
I’m trans, and like actually hate these people, they deserve ridicule. However, if I’m willing to tolerate bigotry on my behalf towards people that are in some out-group, there’s no guarantee that some day I won’t be among that out-group and subsequently targeted by that type of bigotry. Do you understand the issue I’m raising?
I can’t tolerate people misgendering Caitlen Jenner or Blair white because while they suck, it only contributes to an environment where that type of insult is then considered acceptable.
deleted by creator
You’re the type to get weirdly sexual and homophobic when it’s people you disagree with. Not really interested in what you have to say tbh.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Nope.
It goes like this: ‘bigoted man is bigoted because this will aggravate his orange tits. If bigoted man was not bigoted it would not be possible to rip on him like this.’
Put another way: ‘I am a bigot, said John.’
If that doesn’t clarify it then I’m out of patience to explain further.
That’s cool I don’t need any more explanations.
That’s cool I don’t
needhear anymoreexplanations.