• pyre@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    oh my god this is why we lose all the goddamn time. why do pro choice people have to make the fucking worst arguments? this comparison is dumb for multiple reasons. viability is arbitrary and irrelevant, and most importantly could be subject to change. some people talk about the fetus technically being a parasite; that makes you sound psychotic.

    there’s one argument here: freedom over your own body. you shouldn’t be legally forced to undergo an operation for someone else’s benefit. yes even if the fetus is a person, it’s viable, can feel pain, whatever. there’s literally no other situation where that is even remotely legal. you can’t be forced to donate an organ or blood to your own child. the only reason one is forced and one isn’t is because of the general idea that men will be in one of those situations.

    there’s no reason to accept their framing on any of this and try to beat them in some sort of logical trap. they’ll move the goalpost. they’re not serious about any of this. this is and has always been about controlling the woman, and the counter therefore should be about the woman.

    everything about the fetus is just bullshit. if they cared about the fetus they’d argue for its wellbeing literally at any point after the first moment of its birth but they don’t. THEY DON’T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ANY BABY. why would they care about a goddamn chick? no it’s always only about women. the baby stuff is a smokescreen to get you to argue mind numbingly stupid shit like this.

    oh my god if I were arguing with an anti choice moron and someone “on my side” would butt in with “but we kill chicks though” I would smack them across the face. stop being weird.

    • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org
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      2 days ago

      why do pro choice people have to make the fucking worst arguments?

      It’s an ongoing struggle and essentially everybody hates you when you point out just how many pro-choice arguments are either just fucking dumb and ineffective or try to argue for being pro-choice as an application of a broader principle that doesn’t get treated as half as important in most other cases where it’s application would be controversial.

      It’s even worse when you yourself are pro-choice and it’s just pointing out that bad or inconsistent arguments are bad or inconsistent.

      there’s one argument here: freedom over your own body. you shouldn’t be legally forced to undergo an operation for someone else’s benefit. yes even if the fetus is a person, it’s viable, can feel pain, whatever. there’s literally no other situation where that is even remotely legal.

      Freedom over your own body is really only sold as some kind of highest principle specifically in pro-choice arguments and blood and tissue donations. Usually the counter arguments rely on the notion that there’s a point where you’ve agreed to the thing and can’t demand it be undone (you can’t for example donate a kidney and then demand it back), which for pregnancy brings it back around to things like whether or not a human being in the earliest stages of its life counts as a person that you’ve presumably consented to create by engaging in the reproductive act.

      Also, by all appearances the line for when the bodily autonomy argument is seen as acceptable is specifically when the process involved is wholly biological - the moment it can be abstracted from that even a little bit suddenly bodily autonomy no longer applies.

      A fun hypothetical to throw out there is this - artificial wombs are currently in development for agricultural use because they could potentially increase yields and reduce emissions (once the tech is mature, it’s hypothetically cheaper and cleaner to run an artificial womb than maintain a whole cow per head of beef per season). This tech could probably be adapted for human use. So, in a hypothetical where artificial wombs are perfected for human use, would you support banning abortion in favor of transplanting to an artificial womb if the prognosis for the woman was the same, knowing that she will of course be responsible for the resulting child? If no, are you really arguing from bodily autonomy since the part involving the woman’s body has been removed from the equation?

      • pyre@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        it’s fine; I was expecting dumb fucks who make dumb arguments all the time to not read into all that. most of the downvotes probably assume I’m pro life despite the fact that I’m pro choice. not only that but I support abortion without restrictions. don’t care about viability as I think it’s a weak basis, I don’t care if it’s the tenth month.

        I don’t think your example removes the woman from the equation. the transfer is still related to bodily autonomy. the fetus is part of the mother, and forcing someone to transfer it and keep it alive is still against that. you can’t force me to ejaculate into a cup, what makes it ok to force someone to transfer their fetus anywhere?

        nah maybe if you’d have the baby conceived inside the artificial womb from the start…?

        then you’d have other questions like is it ok to force a baby to be born without any parents in their life… whole other can of worms which is about the baby’s welfare, which is why this hypothetical will never be discussed by anti choice people because they don’t give a shit about the baby and aren’t the least bit interested in what would happen to them if you remove the woman from the equation.

        • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org
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          11 hours ago

          I don’t think your example removes the woman from the equation. the transfer is still related to bodily autonomy. the fetus is part of the mother,

          It’s not “part of the mother” once it is no longer physically tethered to her, if it’s no longer physically attached to her body why would bodily autonomy be relevant? Like, the entire point is to separate bodily autonomy from being made responsible for a child, because it demonstrates that the argument isn’t really about bodily autonomy, not entirely.

          To throw you another loop along these lines - if something that was part of your body remains part of your body once removed and you keep overriding power over what happens to it afterward would that mean after you donate blood you have absolute power over who is allowed to receive that blood henceforth?

          and forcing someone to transfer it and keep it alive is still against that.

          Once it’s not attached to her body and is therefore not a matter of bodily autonomy, why shouldn’t she be compelled to provide for it’s continued existence whether or not she wants the child? Maybe threaten her with jail if she doesn’t comply with payments to keep the gestation going.

          you can’t force me to ejaculate into a cup, what makes it ok to force someone to transfer their fetus anywhere?

          In this hypothetical no one is forcing anyone to transfer their fetus, they can carry the pregnancy or terminate the pregnancy as is their preference but what they can’t do is terminate the pregnancy and then kill the fetus, instead a terminated pregnancy doesn’t free you of the future child. Ending a pregnancy in this hypothetical doesn’t end the future responsibility for a child, which is why it’s illustrative of how it’s not entirely about bodily autonomy, not really.

          And for a fun question, what do you think happens legally if you ejaculate somewhere (anywhere other than a vagina is fine for this hypothetical) and someone retrieves that sperm and manages to inseminate themselves with it against your will or even knowledge? I’ll give you a hint, it involves future responsibility for any resulting child. Same situation as applies for reproductive coercion, sexual assault and statutory rape for a person who produces the smaller reproductive cell (to use the US federal government approved phrasing).

          • pyre@lemmy.world
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            9 hours ago

            if it is part of your body the removal is still the removal of part of your body. you can’t say it’s OK to cut off my hand because once it’s off, it’s no longer attached to me. as I said the only way you could remove bodily autonomy from the equation is if the fetus never enters the body (eg it all happens in the artificial womb).

            and this entire hypothetical completely avoids my main point which is that the bodily autonomy problem comes into play not because of the pro-choice side. it’s because of the anti-choice side. the whole point of the entire conversation is the control over women, and the unborn is just a pretense.

            that’s why this hypothetical will never be the problem because if the woman is not involved there wouldn’t be an anti-choice side because THEY. DON’T. CARE. ABOUT. THE FETUS. it’s never about the fetus. which is also why you see people moralize based on religion even though their religion doesn’t actually oppose abortion as a concept.

            also the law you cite is stupid and doesn’t have any weight on what ought to happen. it’s also legal to marry children in some states, doesn’t make it ok.

            • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org
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              9 hours ago

              you can’t say it’s OK to cut off my hand because once it’s off, it’s no longer attached to me.

              No, but I can say that if you ask me to remove your hand, what happens to the hand after it is removed is not a matter of your bodily autonomy.

              the whole point of the entire conversation is the control over women, and the unborn is just a pretense.

              And I’m literally arguing that the pro-choice side isn’t being honest about it either, that claiming it’s exclusively about bodily autonomy is also just pretense. Notice that I’m suggesting a hypothetical where bodily autonomy and still having the child are detached from each other, where ending the pregnancy doesn’t mean you don’t still end up with a baby to deal with and you instead keep trying to find a way to make that still about bodily autonomy because the alternative is admitting that to an extent it isn’t because that idea is uncomfortable to grapple with.

              it’s also legal to marry children in some states

              Yeah, California do be like that (seriously, CA has no minimum age of marriage if you can get a judge to sign off on it). Until 2022 MA had no hard minimum and only required parental consent to marry under 18. Most other states with “child marriage” are something like hard minimum of 16 or 17 and requires sign off from parents, a judge, or both for marriage under 18 (likewise in most states the age of consent is 16).

              Actually surprised no enterprising pedophile with enough money to bribe someone has tried marrying a very young child in CA (or until 2022 MA) then traveling to somewhere like NM where marriage is an exception to age of consent.

              • pyre@lemmy.world
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                6 hours ago

                No, but I can say that if you ask me to remove your hand, what happens to the hand after it is removed is not a matter of your bodily autonomy.

                says who? you can’t force people to donate organs even after they die.

                trying to find a way to make that still about bodily autonomy

                I’m not trying to make it about bodily autonomy. I’m saying what it is in reality, while you are arguing some abstract hypothetical situation to make an irrelevant point.

                once again, if your hypothetical were a reality the whole argument would cease to exist. it would either be legal or illegal but it wouldn’t be the battleground that it is because the battle isn’t about babies.