- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
An Israeli military spokesperson confirmed that there were “hostage situations” in the southern city of Ofakim and the nearby kibbutz of Beeri.
Hamas said it had taken “dozens” of Israeli soldiers hostage and moved them to the Gaza Strip as footage emerged appearing to show gunmen in military fatigues leading a group of mostly barefoot women down a street in Israel.
The announcement and video verified by NBC News came hours after Hamas launched a deadly land, air and sea attack and fired a huge barrage of rockets at Israel.
Removed by mod
If you punch someone on the nose, you can’t expect sympathy when they punch back. This isn’t going to produce the result Hamas was going for.
I mean, Israel is getting sympathy for punching Palestine for the last 75 years.
If Israel had been any other middle eastern country we would have leveled them when they attacked the USS Liberty. Instead we funded 3% of their national budget for another 60 years.
false
false
Elaborate
Israel only punched some of the time, not for the entirety and some of that time they were being punched which led to punching back. No, this isn’t a one sided issue like Ukraine.
You can say the same thing about Israel as well. They are long past peaceful diplomacy when Israel decides it owns their homes.
Plenty of blame to go around, of course, but yeah, the Israeli failure to reign in Zionist squatters provides an easy rallying point. Whether or not Hamas is actually working for the interest of the Palestinian people is immaterial to the perception that they are willing and able to stick it to the Israelis.
I’ve believed for a long time that if Israel actually cared about a proper peace solution, rather than “peace when the other fuckers are all dead”, they should’ve taken inspiration from the Allies and Marshall Planned the fuck out of Palestine. Build up infrastructure and industry, and give the Palestinian people some sense that things will be better, because people who have hope don’t become terrorists. But that’s obviously not something the Israelis actually want, and they’re the ones with the power to change things, so here we are.
That’s all fine and dandy to say, but look at Sodastream. They did their best, building a factory in the West Bank, employing lots of Palestinians and paying them fairly. What did they get for that? So much hate from international terror groups like BDS that they had to close that factory down.
One factory worth of jobs can’t make up for an abusive government that wants to oppress people. They can’t work their way out of this.
And that is why nothing shall change.
Yup and hopefully something will be done about Israel so it can stop.
Sadly, no one sided action can solve the problem. Both Israelis and Palestinians must decide to stop the violent among themselves and actually do the hard work to come to a solution. ATM not enough folks on either side willing.
It’s already produced the result Hamas was going for. They are not fighting for better treatment, they are fighting to cause terror, murder Jews, celebrate their deaths, and revel in their control over the poeple they supposedly govern.
It was the result Nyet 'n Yahoo wanted as well. Like Mango Mussolini, he needs the distraction form his corruption in order to hide from consequences of his actions.
I can’t even comprehend how one could have the situation so backwards in their head that they could say this.
With how skewed the power balance is against them, I support any effort at all to fight against Israel.
not every underdog in the world is morally in the right, you know. There’s also a huge imbalance in power between the January 6th rioters and the United States Government—are you suggesting the rioters were in the right?
ugh, maybe I don’t want to know the answer.
The 1/6 attackers are getting light sentences
Once again, shitty comparison. I don’t even think.I have to explain how this one makes no sense.
that was your logic: you support them because the power balance is skewed.
many evil groups are small, and weak, and underdogs. Rooting for them on that basis is stupid.
I have already outlined why the Palestinians are justified.
Justified in kidnapping, raping and murdering innocent civilians?
This same asshole had the audacity to tell me that my ancestors never lived in Israel. Don’t engage.
Nothing justifies that, but every justified war effort in history have included atrocities. War is hell, and the way you look at it, especially when the Palestinian population has been forced to violence through almost a century of wanton oppression, is shortsighted.
How does this help them gain their land? On the contrary it will harden public opinion against them. The only person that benefits from this is Netanyahu. I’m stunned by the stupidity of Hamas.
Hamas does not exist to regain land. Hamas is not trying to help anybody. Hamas is using the conflict to maintain its socio-political and military control over Palestine.
I mean, afaik both the Jews and Muslims have a legitimate claim to the land, as both their religions have a long history of that territory being “holy” to them. The problem is that (understandably) the Jews only want to be ruled by Jews, and the Muslims only want to be ruled by Muslims. So Israel and Palestine are incompatible with each other in terms of government, leading to the issue that it’ll be extremely hard to get them to shake hands and govern jointly (which, imo, would be the ideal).
That’s not excusing Israel for the violence against the Palestinians. It’s absolutely horrid. Nor is it excusing Palestine for violence against Israelis.
While understandable when looking at their recent history of Israeli aggression, doesn’t exactly make them look good.edit: this was written before Hamas just mowed down a field of concert goers. Fucking disgusting. If you have an issue, take it out on the cops or soldiers, not on the people who are just trying to have a good time.Ah yes, the old “blood and soil” justification. We have a term for people that think this way: Fascist.
Fkin tankies man 😂
Had the Nazis had a hammer and sickle instead of the hakenkreuz, they would be the biggest Sieg Heilers out there.
It’s really bizarre. Kids that have been conditioned by the internet to think democratic countries are bad and authoritarian countries are good. Ideologies are stupid in general, but the tankie thing is just batshit. Hopefully it’s just a weird phase for them, but I see there’s a bunch of tankie grifters on Youtube and as we see with the MAGA grifters, once people develop weird parasocial tendencies they struggle to get out of it.
Not only that… There are some idiots who genuinely believe that China and the USSR were/are democratic and that western democracies aren’t.
True :(
Fascism is supporting Israel, what a crazy thing to say.
Do you even know what fascism is?
Israel is a Democracy.
There hasn’t been an election in Gaza since Hamas gained control… how long has it been? 18 years? Elections have been permanently suspended by Hamas probably longer than you’ve been alive.
And look at what Hamas is doing right now. And why? Blood and soil.
That should be a clue.
Israel is a Democracy.
An Apartheid democracy. What Israel is doing in East Palestine and the West bank, and what they were doing in Gaza before the second intifada, is literally Lebensraum.
“Apartheid state” rhetoric is just covering for the Hamas fascists. See before Hamas got into power Palestine had elections to determine their national leadership. But Hamas got into power and “permanently suspended” elections. They ended Palestinian democracy and by doing so destroyed any hope of Palestine being recognized as a legitimate country by anyone that’s not playing bullshit games.
So now Hamas apologists try to rewrite history to convince people there was never any Palestinian democracy, and try to characterize the conflict as something happening within Israel’s borders, thus “Apartheid state.”
I suppose it’s been so long since Hamas ended democracy in Palestine the younger people don’t have any concept of there ever being Palestinian elections, so maybe it’s understandable to think it’s unfair that Israel doesn’t allow people in the West Bank to vote in Israeli elections. But if you think about it logically, in order for Palestinians in the West Bank to have the rights of Israelis, Israel would have to annex the West Bank. Is that what you want? In order for people in Gaza to have the same rights as Israelis, first Israel would have to re-occupy Gaza, then annex it as well, Is that what you want?
I’m not defending it, but that kinda bypasses a whole lot of context (it was Fatah who tried to ignore the election results first). ?Anyway I’m not saying Hamas are good guys. Anyone who just shoots up civilians is evil in my book, but I’m not sure how that has to do with Israel being an Apartheid state.
I’m talking about the already-annexed East Jerusalem. Either give them independence or let them vote on how they’re governed; and no, city elections aren’t enough.
According to Al Jazeera, Palestinians in East Jerusalem (though apparently they consider it to be “occupied”) do have the right to vote.
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/10/31/elections-7
It’s just that Palestinians tend not to vote in Israeli elections. And Israel has a proportional representation system which has a tendency towards the “two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch” scenario. Minority concerns tend to get factored out in that kind of system.
But I digress, Palestinians in territory annexed by Israel have the right to vote in Israeli elections. They just have low voter turn out. East Jerusalem is Annexed so they can have representation if they want it.
Palestinians in East Jerusalem can have representation in the Knesset if they turn out to vote. It’s questionable what that representation even means in a proportional representation system, but at least where voting rights are concerned, they’re better off than residents of Washington DC.
So yeah the “Apartheid state” meme is all about using ignorance to distract from how Hamas is the group that’s preventing Palestinians from being able to vote for their leaders. Hopefully you’re now less ignorant of the situation there.
-Wikipedia. I think Al-Jazeera is talking about Palestinians who do have Israeli citizenship, because as I said East Jerusalem Palestinians who don’t have Israeli citizenship can only vote in local elections.
This is what I meant by giving them the right to vote. East Palestinians are systematically denied that right.
Almost exactly the same problem exists when they apply for building permits.
The fuck is wrong with you?
People frequently feel emboldened to celebrate murder when the people being murdered are Jews.
So, not because of a long history of brutality towards the Palestinian people, but because they’re Jewish? GFTO with that nonsense.
The conflict has been raging for a long time. So have many other conflict. Nobody defends attacks on civilians anywhere else in the world; only when the victims are Jewish.
You know there’s a massive war going on in Ukraine where Russia is genociding Ukranian civilians and some of the tankies on this very site are cheering them on, right?
Like, there’s dozens of examples I can think of off the top of my head. Attacks on civilians get defended all the time, by various different groups of shitheads.
This is bullshit, I’m afraid. I haven’t seen single comment here supporting an attack on Israel civilians. Stop gaslighting.
There are like twelve people here. This person doesn’t seem too torn up, but you want support, you want celebration.
Obviously, people in Palestine are celebrating the attacks, but let’s forget about them.
Mia Kalifa is not only celebrating the attack, but retweeting a good dozen other people who are doing the same, each of whom seem to be getting plenty of attention: https://nitter.net/miakhalifa
I’m trying not to expose myself to much more, but if you really want me to subject myself to people reveling in the murder of my people, I’ll go look.
Maybe it’s a Lemmy issue but your first link appears to be to a post you made.
As to your second link, that’s just to an account, I’m not going to scroll through pages and pages of comments.
If this is the best you can come up with, you’ve just proved my point so please, stop gaslighting.
That entire fucking account is full of propaganda and gaslighting. No need to scroll through pages, just read the top 10 bullshits on there.
The first thing is a lemmy issue, for sure. I was linking to the comment suggesting that it’s okay to murder Israeli civilians because they’re all “Nazis.”
And, ugh, it’s most of Khalifa’s tweets, but fine:
https://nitter.net/miakhalifa/status/1710663220619313397#m
https://nitter.net/farzndeimam/status/1710532280291049891#m
https://nitter.net/NadiSaadeh/status/1710628721151942987#m
https://nitter.net/miakhalifa/status/1710641662068670834#m
https://nitter.net/miakhalifa/status/1710722638975279537#m
And, while we’re at it:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CyHbF0FrD3M/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CyG1HdsA5I9/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CpIyIEPO-OI/
That enough for you?
It’s impossible for Zionists to make a coherent argument without lying about easily verifiable facts.
Extrapolating being anti-Israel to being anti-Judaism is ignorant.
People oppose North Korea. Nobody revels in the slaughter of North Korean civilians. Nobody celebrates the killing of civilians anywhere except Israel. There’s a reason.
By the way, they’re constantly using anti-semitic tropes to do it.
North Korea wasnt artificially planted on land that wasn’t theirs less than a hundred years ago, terrible comparison.
Neither was Israel. Israel retook its homeland from British colonizers through a conflict with the British, the Jordanians, and another group of Arabs (the word “Palestinian” at the time referred to everybody who happened to live there, not particularly to the Arab subgroup it refers to today). It was not planted, it was liberated by its indigenous people.
Nope, its indigenous people were the arabs who happened to live there for hundreds of years previously.
Nah people celebrate when the people being murdered are Nazis.
Barbarism, like all violence, is never justified. It may be inevitable, but brutalizing innocent People has never and will never accomplish anything of merit. While the origins may be understandable, they in no way justify the actions and in no way further the cause, but definitely impede progress.
that’s fascism
And what should the Jews there do until their land is theirs again? Or are only the Palestinians allowed a homeland?
Look at Israel’s borders when it was formed and look at them now, and then ask yourself why there’s such a difference
the charts you’ve been seeing are mostly fictitious. The most significant event those charts even attempt to depict is the 6-day war in 1967, when Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia attacked Israel, Israel defended itself, and took control of Jordanian-controlled East Jerusalem and the Syrian-controlled Golan Heights in response—and that’s about it.
Everyone should be allowed a homeland, but not everyone should be allowed an apartheid state where they’re allowed to oppress others.
It’s a good thing Israel is the only place in the Middle East where people have the same rights regardless of race or religion. There’s nothing in Israel resembling apartheid.
https://www.algemeiner.com/2022/01/24/dismantling-the-apartheid-lie/
The Israeli government oppresses the Palestinian people in response to the constant threat the region poses to Israeli civilians. I wish for peace and an end to oppression. But since Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005, terrorist activity spiked. Israel’s concessions constantly result in the deaths of innocent Israelis. This is the conflict.
Correction: Terrorist activity, predictably spiked after the blockade in 2007. I mean, turning countries into open-air concentration camps has that effect.
What? How does oppressing civilians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem help combat terror? How does settlement in the West Bank help combat terror?
Also check the official definition of Apartheid. Do you need me to tell you how Israel fits the definition?
There’s nothing necessary about the oppression of Palestinians in Israel, Gaza or the West Bank. The terror attacks you’re talking about are the result of the oppression; don’t mix your cause and effect.
The main oppressors of Gaza are Hamas. The main reason for their living conditions is because building materials are taken from the Palestinian citizens to be instead used for tunnels into Israel to kill more Jews. The reason for the blockade is because Iran sends Hamas weapons by sea otherwise. Hell, even with the blockade they still try to do so.
Of course all of these facts are comfortably ignored because “Israel bad”.
The terror came after, not before, the blockade. Just saying. And a blockade is already an act of war, so Hamas fighting is to be expected.
The blockade started in 2007. The terror started a solid century before then. Shit, the second intifada started in 2000.
The revisionist history is strong in this thread.
1907? The conflict was definitely ongoing then, but that’s a strange definition of terror.
Do I really have to say “terror by Hamas-controlled Gaza” when I’m already talking about Hamas-controlled Gaza? Also, calling the second intifada terror is extremely ignorant and ignores the actual reasons it happened.
Your tactic is superficial. A blockade does not make a concentration camp. You’re evoking imagery of something that is, in fact, wholly unrelated. you chose that term specifically in your intentional, racist attempt to paint Jews as Nazis. I hope to hell nobody falls for it.
Specifically, the blockade helps fight terror. The blockade prevents terrorists from getting materials to make weapons. And Hamas uses anything it can get its hands on into a weapon. That’s part of the reason they work so hard to control the flow of aid within Palestine—the other reasons being quite obvious.
Only insofar as every border everywhere fits the definition. South African Apartheid—the thing people are trying to reference in order to demonize Israel—was intra-state apartheid. It was not an instance of border enforcement. Border enforcement is incredibly common. The Israel-Palestine conflict has nothing to do with Apartheid South Africa, but again, you people know that people think Apartheid is bad, so those are your go-tos. Israel is Nazis, Israel is Apartheid. Neither claim holds up to any scrutiny. You’d be better off arguing that Israel was a communist nation, tbh.
Muslims and Arabs in the region have been terrorizing Jews since at least the late 1800s. They were never willing to accept any form of peace or coexistence.
That’s a metaphor, ever heard of it? Israel doesn’t allow dual-use materials. The thing is: A lot of life’s necessities are dual use. See:
The blockade caused the terror. Like literally the rocket attacks started with the blockade; you can look at the timeline. Also I like how you now narrowed your definition to the blockade, because you can’t justify anything happening to Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
You need to learn more about East Jerusalem. I’ll start: East Jerusalem Palestinians are systematically and routinely evicted from their homes to make way for Jewish settlements. It’s much harder for Palestinians to gain construction permits than it is for Jews. Palestinian peaceful protests are repeatedly suppressed violently. It’s almost impossible for a Palestinian in East Jerusalem to get Israeli citizenship (not that many want it, but the ones who do can’t), meaning that they live under a regime they can’t politically participate in. Should I go on? For more information, look up “Palestinian boy shoot in face by Israeli police”. There’s more than one story.
Note how I didn’t even touch on the West Bank; that’s a whole different beast.
You mean anti-Jewish sentiment began to rise when the “let’s take Arabs’ lands for ourselves” movement began to gain steam? Say it ain’t so. Also give me an example of that terrorization.
It’s a racially charged metaphor, and intentionally so. And it’s a very, very weak one, except for that racism.
You’re literally making up a lie for the purpose of blaming the victim, but luckily, it’s easily falsifiable. Rocket fire began in 2001, the blockade began in 2007.
What are you talking about? I gave an example. Do you want me to go through the security basis for a dozen more regulations? Would that be a constructive use of my time, here?
Have you ever heard the term “victim blaming” before?
Early Zionism was entirely peaceful. Zionists purchased land in Israel, and only settled portions of land where nobody was. They didn’t displace any Arabs until the 40s, until after the Muftis broke bread with the Nazis, until after the Jews in the British mandate had been suffering under active Arab oppression and pogroms for decades.
I’m sick of you people coming at me with this stupid fucking logic. Look it up, it’ll take less than a minute to find a few of the early pogroms in the British Mandate. I’m not responsible for educating you.
Sigh it’s obvious that the second infifada doesn’t count here. Do I need to state “rocket fire by Hamas-controlled Gaza” when we’re obviously talking about Hamas-controlled Gaza?
How is the British mandate the late 1800s?
The security basis for… Shutting down peaceful protest, evicting Palestinians from their homes, not letting them participate
There was no way Israel was going to turn out as anything other than what it is now. A land ruled by nationalist Jews was inevitably going to oppress the Muslims in it, and it did.
absolute nazi take.
I thoroughly encourage anyone on the fence about the situation to read the article you linked because it is a fantastic example of how weak Israel’s argument that they’re not an apartheid state is. It’s nothing but whataboutism and tokenism.
Just to clarify, you understand they’re all semites and they’re all from that particular region?
Like, it isn’t Israelite land any more than its Palestinian land and at a certain point, these claims of “it was ours first” just continue the cycle of violence, oppression and war crimes.
They are all both perpetrators and victims.
Yeah, but his belief that it’s his homeland is more valid than their belief it’s their homeland because a bunch of weirdo evangelical Christians who pull the strings of the largest military in the world think Jews need to be in Israel for the end times to commence.
The word “antisemitism” has a long, complex history you can read about on wikipedia. It was largely promoted by antisemites for some time. But now, it’s the standard term for racism against Jews, and we largely find debates about the use of the term tedious and pointless. We don’t mind calling it Jew-Hate, but people recognize the term antisemitism, and it works.
Religious homelands are not homelands.
Are ethnic homelands homelands?
What counts as a homeland, to you? Where are we allowed to engage in self-determination?
You know what, you’re right. My family fled Lithuania when the Soviets took over, so I’m on the next flight to Vilnius and I’m going to move into the first house I find owned by an ethnic Russian.
I would not recommend or condone that, personally, but I am happy that you are once again welcome in Lithuania. If you did find and reclaim your own family’s home through some procedure under Lithuanian law, that would be nice.
My family fled Iran during the revolution. We are not welcome there. We still own property there, in theory. Many Jews are unwelcome in many of the places they spent hundreds or thousands of years. We have frequently been expelled from our various homelands. You can see why we don’t want to be expelled from our own. I do hope you understand.
Oh trust me, some of the things Jews did for that land were not lawful. See Benny Morris’s 4-stage analysis of the Palestinian diaspora.
Yes, ethnic homelands are homelands because their ancestors have been living there. Being a member of the same religion does not entitle you or your people to land any more than shouting an incantation.
The Jewish people are an ethnic group, not only a religion. Our ancestors lived in Israel. No matter how hard the various colonizers tried to keep us over the millennia, we maintained some Jewish presence there the entire time. Now, we once again control a portion of our ethnic homeland and are not willing to give it up.
Is there something you’re still confused about?
Nope, your ancestors didnt live in Israel. People who were the same religious as you did. The jewish presence expanded rapidly in various waves, but was not as consistent as you’re making it out to be. It is not your ethnic homeland.
How fucking dare you tell me who my ancestors were. I know where my ancestors lived. If you don’t believe me, you can go fuck yourself.
Sorry 🫡 go fuck yourself as well
deleted by creator
Sadly, what all must do is talk to one another, respect one another, and work out a solution. Neither the Nyet and Yahoo brigade nor the clueless attack and hide while innocents are punished for your actions squad are working upon a solution. Likely they are the impediment which must go away first.
Hamas can’t disappear until Israel’s stance changes. Remember: Hamas came to power because Israel wasn’t willing to advance a peaceful solution.
And their actions make that harder to accomplish just as the actions taken by Israel can’t disappear until the Palestinians’ stance changes. It is a circle.
No no. Hamas’s philosophy, and what won them the 2006 elections (they had never won before that), was the idea that peace was clearly not working. For example, what got Israel to pull out of Gaza was not the Oslo peace process, but the second Intifada after the peace process had failed. That’s what I’m talking about. It’s not like Palestinians are fighting because they want to; it’s that Israel is creating a situation where there’s no way but to fight or accept your fate as the oppressed. Usually the oppressor needs to stop their oppression before the oppressed stop fighting back.
Now I’m not saying if Israel gave Palestinians their demands terror attacks would stop completely, but a population living in peace greatly reduces terrorist organizations’ recruitment pool. See: The IRA during the troubles vs now. There’s just no world where Hamas can maintain power without a belligerent Israel…
Your first paragraph is utterly irrelevant to the discussion as this isn’t about reasons for grievance. That said, you are mostly wrong about the cause and effect involved.
The IRA then VS now was also via Peace Process being a two way street and not one side doing something. You should study what happened to see that it was in fact both sides realizing the only way forward. Unlike you myopic “It is up to the greater power to stop fighting first!”, both sides had to. And while your supposition that Hamas relies upon the oppression for their continued existence, they would cause the process to fail by an attack, much as the current one. And the only result is those that are also reliant upon the conflict for power in Israel are using the attack to increase support for more oppression.
In this case what’s happening is that neither side is pursuing that way, so nothing gets done. It’s up to Israel to provide an avenue for a sensible peace if they want Palestinians to take it. Remember: Palestinians tried that path (see: The Oslo accords) but their philosophies on the matter are just different. Palestinians view the peace process as a way to take back part of what’s theirs, while Israel is just giving them the bare minimum so they stop terror attacks. Until one of these changes (preferably Israel’s) there’ll never be peace.
For example this was part of the Israeli peace offer in the Camp David summit in 2000:
I mean would any self-respecting state really approve these demands?
“neither side” was is the only part of your post that was relevant to anything but grievance seeking.
What should Israel’s stance be with regards to people who want them dead?
Give Gaza autonomy in exchange for disbanding Hamas and turning in their leaders. Have a third party both sides trust provide security guarantees to Palestine so they can trust the bargin will hold
Not do things that put people who want them did into power. There’s a reason Palestinians flocked behind Hamas and that was because peaceful solutions were not working.
Are you sure? Maybe the Palestinian people should vote on that. Oh wait they can’t, Hamas won’t allow a vote. Instead they threaten “their own” citizens to make sure they’re more afraid of them than of Israel.
Of course, Hamas also can’t exist without Israel, otherwise who would they have to murder “from the Jordan River to the sea” as stated in their charter.
Yes, without the oppressor the oppressed wouldn’t have rallied behind a group who want to violently expel the oppressors. That’s part of the anti-zionist argument.