i hope that everyone realises that the benefit of activitypub has nothing to do with mastodon taking to mastodon, lemmy talking to lemmy, etc but the strength is tooting a reply to a peertube video and having a discussion on lemmy in which all these comments are shared
… bluesky has none of this
however, what bluesky has:
(currently) the sign up process is easy: you don’t need to understand federation or why to choose a server - you just… register
honestly, more people interact in the circles that i’m in (no; it’s not furry: i hear though that their population has exploded though) critical mass is more important than anything for a social platform
custom feeds are legit cool af… i don’t have time to filter posts and we can’t expect people to add their own metadata; i want code to do it for me! its like “the algorithm” is now many and you can choose which one depending on your mood… also if you don’t like it you can choose a whole new one that some random 3rd party wrote, or make one yourself
none of that is intrinsic to bsky, or will remain in the long-term i think (federation implies needing a more complex sign-up process)
the strength is tooting a reply to a peertube video and having a discussion on lemmy in which all these comments are shared
I’m with you. The problem is that this promise is mostly empty, at least at the moment.
ActivityPub, from what I’ve gleaned, is too vague and open ended and under-developed in terms of software for this to be true. The result is that each platform is implementing a sub-set of the protocol and often adding their own custom twists/additions to it. Which means that just because two platforms use ActivityPub does not mean at all that those two platforms can communicate in anyway. And, even if they can communicate, there’s no guarantee at all that this will be usable.
The interaction between lemmy and mastodon is illustrative. Technically they can communicate, and at times this can work well. But the two platforms are hardly mutually enriching each other because the interactions between them are fairly limited in number. And that’s because they don’t talk to each other well. Some of that is because they’ve implemented different parts of the protocol. Some of it is also their differences in design and UI/UX that just add too much friction to consuming and meaningfully interacting with content from the other platform.
What’s more, this problem is fairly predictable and has been criticised as a false promise in the past. At the moment, I’d say it’s fair to say that ActivityPub has not been proven as a way to enable communication between substantially different platforms. That might change over time, though I suspect the load on developers to make that happen will remain high without some major foundational work.
But right now, unless there’s something I don’t know/understand, I don’t see the extra-platform capabilities of ActivityPub playin any role in the success of the fediverse in competition with BlueSky, at least as far as Mastodon is concerned which, as a platform, is relatively happy just doing its own thing.
I quite disagree. Of course interoperability is not going to be a perfect one to one - that’s in the nature of these being different services. You don’t want threads from a link aggregater taking over your microblogging feed.
Yet it’s normal for Mastodon users to join in on the conversation here. From their perspective they never left Mastodon - from my perspective, I never left kbin - and you, for your part, think it’s all happening within Lemmy. But it’s really not. So these things happen all the time, it’s just that you don’t necessarily notice unless you check the domain of the person you’re responding to. Mastodon users of course often leave in the @-tags, making them a bit easier to identify.
Lemmy is a bit more isolated than Kbin, as it is not integrating microblogs at all. That’s a decision on the side of the developers, not a weakness of the ActivityPub protocol.
Yet it’s normal for Mastodon users to join in on the conversation here.
Well, as neither of us are presenting or citing data on this, we can’t be sure.
Personally I care about this and keep a bit of a lookout for it and have in the past tried to advocate for and create more cross-platform talk. In my experience, and from what I’ve heard from others, the UX friction from the mastodon end makes it mostly a dead end. So while some cross talk certainly happens, I’d estimate it’s quite minor and meaningless in so far as we’re talking about it as a salient strength of ActivityPub compared to its competitor ATProto.
That’s a decision on the side of the developers, not a weakness of the ActivityPub protocol.
What this misses is whether the protocol makes it easier or harder for developers to ”decide” to allow for more inter-platform cross talk. Part of my critique was that the protocol and its general design isn’t making this easier. Kbin, for instance, doesn’t truly support microblogging. And the lemmy devs have acknowledged that allowing users to be followed like communities would be good but is just too hard right now.
The question then is whether the protocol could have made this easier for platform devs, either through its design or through providing fundamental tooling that enables developers more and removed the need for constant wheel-reinvention. From what I’ve heard from actual developers working with the protocol, they’re real technical critiques to be made around how hard it is to work with. So I believe that it isn’t helping anyone interested in making something new and interesting with it (which has yet to be done IMO, though kbin gets close ).
What do you mean kbin doesn’t really support microblogging?
The only real issue I can think of right now is that it does not display videos or polls yet, but for being an early version of a software developed primarily by one guy as a hobby project those are pretty minor omissions.
What do you mean kbin doesn’t really support microblogging?
I could be wrong about this … but as I understand, you can’t see a feed of microblogs/posts from people that you follow. Instead everything is viewed through magazines, which pickup microblogs but combine them with the ordinary threadiverse content posted to those magazines. Following people and viewing their personal posts is, I’d say, the essence of microblogging.
Not a criticism of kbin at all BTW … easily the youngest platform on the fediverse but doing quite well it seems with already a fork that’s doing well too (mbin).
Hi @maegul, actually you can track people you follow in the /sub feed at https://kbin.social/sub/microblog. It might seem a bit chaotic, with what looks like random posts, but in reality, each of them has a response from someone you follow (or an boost post/comment). But you’re right, it’s not perfect yet, and the presentation will be improved in the coming weeks/months to highlight specific comments from people you follow on front. I’ll probably write about it in my devlog soon ;)
Thanks Ernest!! Hope you’re going well and kbin development isn’t too much of a burden!!
I’ve seen that view before, and just checked it now again. It still feels like there’s more in the feed than should be. I’m probably missing some of the boosts etc that you cite, but it feels to me like some posts are coming in without it being clear why they’re there. My guess has always been that my subscriptions are playing a role somehow.
Anyway, hope the new changes go well!! And thanks for the response!
Could you maybe give users the ability to exclude certain communities/hashtags? Some hashtags associated with communities like #fediverse seem to be overused to the point that following it barely filters content.
The option to keep followed users and subscribed communities separate in the feed will be great!
Really impressed by the pace of progress lately - it’s very much appreciated. You’re building something special here. :)
I expect it would be technically possible to have lemmy-like or peertube-like services built on top of the AT protocol Bluesky uses, like with ActivityPub. And I expect if/when that happens the communication across services would probably work too.
In fact, accounts being “portable” in the AT protocol can potentially make the integration more seamless across different services, not only might the posts be seen from different services, but you might be able to directly access those different services with the same account. Imagine if you could login in lemmy with a mastodon account or vice-versa.
Bluesky is just one of the possible services. But as long as the invites are private and you can’t host your own instance, I wouldn’t even consider it an alternative. I think it’s a bit early to judge, both its positives and its negatives.
I was going to say the same but don’t know enough about BlueSky’s ATProtocol to be sure about the possibilities.
In principle, you’d hope they’ve added enough flexibility on there for different platform types. If they have, next year could get interesting as they open up federation. There seems to be a bit of buzz and interest around BlueSky, and if they garner the interest of enough developers who feel like they can make new things on the platform/protocol, then new things could happen and, if they attract a sizeable Twitter migration, go kinda mainstream pretty quickly.
i hope that everyone realises that the benefit of activitypub has nothing to do with mastodon taking to mastodon, lemmy talking to lemmy, etc but the strength is tooting a reply to a peertube video and having a discussion on lemmy in which all these comments are shared
… bluesky has none of this
however, what bluesky has:
none of that is intrinsic to bsky, or will remain in the long-term i think (federation implies needing a more complex sign-up process)
Tbh no ads + open source is what draws me to activity pub. Nothing about a microblogging service is groundbreaking in 2023 anyway.
I disagree… Have you ever actually seen this work, even remotely well?
Like the way replies work, particularly when you’re mixing threaded and linear responses (i.e., Lemmy and Mastodon) is just a mess.
I’m with you. The problem is that this promise is mostly empty, at least at the moment.
ActivityPub, from what I’ve gleaned, is too vague and open ended and under-developed in terms of software for this to be true. The result is that each platform is implementing a sub-set of the protocol and often adding their own custom twists/additions to it. Which means that just because two platforms use ActivityPub does not mean at all that those two platforms can communicate in anyway. And, even if they can communicate, there’s no guarantee at all that this will be usable.
The interaction between lemmy and mastodon is illustrative. Technically they can communicate, and at times this can work well. But the two platforms are hardly mutually enriching each other because the interactions between them are fairly limited in number. And that’s because they don’t talk to each other well. Some of that is because they’ve implemented different parts of the protocol. Some of it is also their differences in design and UI/UX that just add too much friction to consuming and meaningfully interacting with content from the other platform.
What’s more, this problem is fairly predictable and has been criticised as a false promise in the past. At the moment, I’d say it’s fair to say that ActivityPub has not been proven as a way to enable communication between substantially different platforms. That might change over time, though I suspect the load on developers to make that happen will remain high without some major foundational work.
But right now, unless there’s something I don’t know/understand, I don’t see the extra-platform capabilities of ActivityPub playin any role in the success of the fediverse in competition with BlueSky, at least as far as Mastodon is concerned which, as a platform, is relatively happy just doing its own thing.
I quite disagree. Of course interoperability is not going to be a perfect one to one - that’s in the nature of these being different services. You don’t want threads from a link aggregater taking over your microblogging feed.
Yet it’s normal for Mastodon users to join in on the conversation here. From their perspective they never left Mastodon - from my perspective, I never left kbin - and you, for your part, think it’s all happening within Lemmy. But it’s really not. So these things happen all the time, it’s just that you don’t necessarily notice unless you check the domain of the person you’re responding to. Mastodon users of course often leave in the @-tags, making them a bit easier to identify.
Lemmy is a bit more isolated than Kbin, as it is not integrating microblogs at all. That’s a decision on the side of the developers, not a weakness of the ActivityPub protocol.
Well, as neither of us are presenting or citing data on this, we can’t be sure.
Personally I care about this and keep a bit of a lookout for it and have in the past tried to advocate for and create more cross-platform talk. In my experience, and from what I’ve heard from others, the UX friction from the mastodon end makes it mostly a dead end. So while some cross talk certainly happens, I’d estimate it’s quite minor and meaningless in so far as we’re talking about it as a salient strength of ActivityPub compared to its competitor ATProto.
What this misses is whether the protocol makes it easier or harder for developers to ”decide” to allow for more inter-platform cross talk. Part of my critique was that the protocol and its general design isn’t making this easier. Kbin, for instance, doesn’t truly support microblogging. And the lemmy devs have acknowledged that allowing users to be followed like communities would be good but is just too hard right now.
The question then is whether the protocol could have made this easier for platform devs, either through its design or through providing fundamental tooling that enables developers more and removed the need for constant wheel-reinvention. From what I’ve heard from actual developers working with the protocol, they’re real technical critiques to be made around how hard it is to work with. So I believe that it isn’t helping anyone interested in making something new and interesting with it (which has yet to be done IMO, though kbin gets close ).
What do you mean kbin doesn’t really support microblogging?
The only real issue I can think of right now is that it does not display videos or polls yet, but for being an early version of a software developed primarily by one guy as a hobby project those are pretty minor omissions.
I could be wrong about this … but as I understand, you can’t see a feed of microblogs/posts from people that you follow. Instead everything is viewed through magazines, which pickup microblogs but combine them with the ordinary threadiverse content posted to those magazines. Following people and viewing their personal posts is, I’d say, the essence of microblogging.
Not a criticism of kbin at all BTW … easily the youngest platform on the fediverse but doing quite well it seems with already a fork that’s doing well too (mbin).
Hi @maegul, actually you can track people you follow in the /sub feed at https://kbin.social/sub/microblog. It might seem a bit chaotic, with what looks like random posts, but in reality, each of them has a response from someone you follow (or an boost post/comment). But you’re right, it’s not perfect yet, and the presentation will be improved in the coming weeks/months to highlight specific comments from people you follow on front. I’ll probably write about it in my devlog soon ;)
Thanks Ernest!! Hope you’re going well and kbin development isn’t too much of a burden!!
I’ve seen that view before, and just checked it now again. It still feels like there’s more in the feed than should be. I’m probably missing some of the boosts etc that you cite, but it feels to me like some posts are coming in without it being clear why they’re there. My guess has always been that my subscriptions are playing a role somehow.
Anyway, hope the new changes go well!! And thanks for the response!
I will also separate this feed with the ability to track only users, excluding communities.
Could you maybe give users the ability to exclude certain communities/hashtags? Some hashtags associated with communities like #fediverse seem to be overused to the point that following it barely filters content.
The option to keep followed users and subscribed communities separate in the feed will be great!
Really impressed by the pace of progress lately - it’s very much appreciated. You’re building something special here. :)
I expect it would be technically possible to have lemmy-like or peertube-like services built on top of the AT protocol Bluesky uses, like with ActivityPub. And I expect if/when that happens the communication across services would probably work too.
In fact, accounts being “portable” in the AT protocol can potentially make the integration more seamless across different services, not only might the posts be seen from different services, but you might be able to directly access those different services with the same account. Imagine if you could login in lemmy with a mastodon account or vice-versa.
Bluesky is just one of the possible services. But as long as the invites are private and you can’t host your own instance, I wouldn’t even consider it an alternative. I think it’s a bit early to judge, both its positives and its negatives.
It seems BlueSky have explicit plans for their protocol to extend to all types of platforms: https://atproto.com/blog/building-on-atproto#what-to-expect
Which means they’re coming for the fediverse, and may just succeed.
I was going to say the same but don’t know enough about BlueSky’s ATProtocol to be sure about the possibilities.
In principle, you’d hope they’ve added enough flexibility on there for different platform types. If they have, next year could get interesting as they open up federation. There seems to be a bit of buzz and interest around BlueSky, and if they garner the interest of enough developers who feel like they can make new things on the platform/protocol, then new things could happen and, if they attract a sizeable Twitter migration, go kinda mainstream pretty quickly.