- cross-posted to:
- Neoliberal@kbin.social
- cross-posted to:
- Neoliberal@kbin.social
Donald Trump told the president of the European Commission in 2020 that the US would “never come help” if Europe was attacked and also said “Nato is dead”, a senior European commissioner said.
Multiple news outlets said the exchange between Trump and Ursula von der Leyen at the World Economic Forum in Davos in 2020 was described in Brussels on Tuesday by Thierry Breton, a French European commissioner responsible for the internal market, with responsibilities including defence.
“You need to understand that if Europe is under attack we will never come to help you and to support you,” Trump said, according to Breton, who was speaking at the European parliament.
According to Breton, Trump also said: “By the way, Nato is dead, and we will leave, we will quit Nato.”
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This is why NATO has begun ramping up defense purchases recently.
Trump has been polling higher recently, and that scares the fuck out of Europe, because they know Trump will at best allow Putin to steamroll the region and, at worst, actively use US resources to help dictatorships expand their sphere of influence, culminating in WWIII.
They’re not willing to wait until that happens.
Very happy to see this comment! But is that not a great thing? What’s your take?
On one hand I understand how important it is to defend democracy in Europe. On the other hand, why is Europe depending on the US for their own defense?
WWII and the Cold War is long past, Europe long rebuilt and healthy. If my neighbor is a raging asshole that may come over and kick my ass, I’m armed. I’m getting my neighbors armed and making sure we’re all trained and on the same page. And fuck the guy 2-miles away with his wavering support. He won’t be in my front yard when the Brown (Orange) Shirts come knocking.
Weird hearing Americans decry military spending (because we’re geographically safe), and also decry Trump for wanting out of NATO, or at least demanding they pay their share.
FFS, the most expensive thing on Earth is a second-rate military. Make a damned choice.
On the other hand, why is Europe depending on the US for their own defense?
They’re not. That’s kind of a weird thing to say, if you have any understanding of the situation.
The point of NATO is to present a unified front against the ever-present authoritarian threat in the region that’s been ongoing since WWII, and the US as a founding member has spent more on their military by orders of magnitude, so has had an outsized voice in NATO.
If they pull out those resources, that would hurt the coalition because, again, with their military spending being more than ten times the next ten countries combined, they’re the silverback gorilla in the room, and losing that against countries willing to throw their entire population as human cannon fodder into conflicts because they don’t care about human costs would hurt a lot. What happens when Russia decides to reclaim the rest of the countries Putin thinks are rightly part of their federation, because Putin has delusions of becoming an historical tsar? What happens when Trump’s US backs Putin in that effort?
Your few guns will not fix any of this. Your few guns will not even help stave off anything in your own county. That’s never how this has worked. This will be ushered in while you get your groceries and watch Netflix, with no clear enemy to fight, after an authoritarian has been voted in as president, as everything else is just a Tuesday.
I appreciate that you think you can head off the next major fascist regime because you’re armed, but that’s not how this works. You will never have a target to shoot at. You will be just like average Germans in the 1930s, waiting for the moment it has gone too far, and then in the late 40s trying to figure out when that moment actually happened.
e: also, there are no ‘orange shirts’. Your terminology is tres bizarre. It’s Brownshirts or red caps. That’s an embarrassing mistake to make.
I mostly agree with your response, except for chastising OP about the color of the shirt. They start by mentioning brown, then parenthetically say “orange” as an unveiled reference to Trump.
This is because Trump is known to use a LOT of bronzer that turns his skin an unusual orange color. So what OP was trying to do was to relate the brownshirts to the presumed task force that Trump would create if he became a dictator.
It wasn’t about the colour of the shirt; that’s what you took from my comment?
lol okay, my point had nothing at all to do with colours.
Brownshirt == fascist paramilitary force
Redcap == fascist paramilitary force
Orange shirt == ?? Uh, maybe someone who should retake cosmetics finals?
e: Oohh, you’re ai right? That’s something to be proud of I guess. (I’m joking)
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Sorry, I was a bit drunk and mixed up a couple of things in my head. (I didn’t see the usernames and thought I was still talking to the same ‘yes and’ troll.)
I’m a dipshit and should know better than to be online when drunk. That’s my bad.
Nice insult, I guess? Is that the new thing instead of calling someone a bot?
Anyways, I guess the explanation of how OP took the traditional brownshirt and updated it to fit the color that represents Trump in order to propose that his fascist forces could be called ‘orangeshirts’ just kinda flew over your head, huh? It’s ok, maybe you’ll get it somewhere down the line.
No, sorry. I mixed things up in my head and didn’t realise you weren’t the troll I’d replied to, so I was overly aggressive. I was kinda drunk, and I should know better than to be online inebriated. I sincerely apologise.
e: I’ve downvoted myself as penance.
It happens. Apology accepted. You don’t have to downvote yourself, lol.
Thank you for being mature enough to recognize the situation for what it was and to reply with honest self-reflection.
Your few guns will not fix any of this. Your few guns will not even help stave off anything in your own county. That’s never how this has worked. This will be ushered in while you get your groceries and watch Netflix, with no clear enemy to fight, after an authoritarian has been voted in as president, as everything else is just a Tuesday.
OP knows this deep down. People who cling to guns and control over their personal property do so because they feel out of control as to the big things, and if they are honest they can admit it.
Europe isn’t depending on the US for their defense. The countries in Europe have their own militaries and two - three if you count Russia - are nuclear armed. They just don’t have as high a percentage military spending as the US does. Many of them prioritise stuff like healthcare for their populations.
What an absolutely ignorant take. Pick up a high school history textbook, read it, then form an opinion.
block this guy. Troll of the highest order.
I’m somewhat lost on this issue. I feel embarrassingly ignorant about stuff like wars and defense budgets and NATO, etc. Maybe it’s bc I’m young and probably didn’t pay enough attention to history class in high school, but all this to say, if anybody knows of any good learning materials I’d be really grateful! Especially anything ELI5-style, geared toward people like me who have a hard time wrapping our heads around it.
One thing I’m curious about is just, basically what shalafi asked above. Is it true that the US spends a whole lot more on their military than other NATO allies; and if so, why is that? I understand there might not be a simple answer to a question like that, but I figured it wouldn’t hurt to ask.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget
The USA spends a lot of money on military. Why, that’s a very nuanced question with a lot of answers. Since it’s the reasons are:
Fear mongering
Politicians Funneling money to give their constituents jobs.
Republicans perpetually want to spend more. Democrats can’t cut the budget.
Maintaining global influence
Republicans perpetually want to spend more
The party of fiscal responsibility. But medicare is too expensive, guise!
It’s funny how the US military is the most expensive military in the world then. You guys spend 10x more money than the next guy.
In fact the only reason your military is “better” at all is simply because of that fact. Maybe you should look up what countries are spending on their military before you make stupid comments like that.
I can see your point, but I’d hardly describe this as “a good thing”.
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The strangest thing about this, to me, is that it’s obvious that another Trump presidency would be disaster for a lot of governments in Europe, but what are they actually doing about it?
All I see are the massively successful disinformation campaigns coming out of Russia.
Probably occupied staving off the same disinformation and right wing lunatics set to sweep their elections this year…
And failing hard to do so
Swede here, in the revolving door of maybe NATO membership. I’d prefer the EU to have our own military union that is affiliated with NATO but isn’t devoted to American interests. Unfortunately it seems too late for such considerations with our right wing government signing treaties as fast as they can. Thanks, Putin.
Why is every country electing a right wing government? They are literally good for fucking nothing, what good have they done ever for anyone?
They are good for one thing, hating other people.
I disagree, I’m not right-wing and I’m much better at hating people. Just for better reasons.
Hating other people, not hating people. That one word is important.
Lmao, while I’m good at hating myself, I’m good at hating other people too.
You would think so.
And the masses love their daily hour of hate. Really gets the blood pumping.
In tough times people turn to strongmen.
Now that’s a reply that can be copy/pasted to loads of questions! Bravo!
In tough times, people like to make things worse
Because they promise easy solutions to impossible problems, promise to push the pain and hardship onto someone else, promise to make life easier and simpler and to chase away all the things that make it difficult.
The fact they do the opposite doesn’t matter
Bc the only outride the status quo options the wealth-controlled media will promote as viable is the far right.
The result of the rich owning all media, spreading misinformation to get even more tax cuts and subsidies. Right wing politics come in many flavors these days but they always favor the interest of some very wealthy groups and then distract the masses with more lies.
Those with wealth and power, have the wealth and power to get their message out more effectively. And push back against the message of those without wealth and power efficiently. We as a collective global society have decided to reward the most psychotic selfish monkeys among us. With a laser focus on brutally punishing the poor and disadvantaged. Even as we consistently give the wealthy gentle pats on the wrist, should they violate the public trust, laws, etc.
Every billionaire is a failure of government as are most multi-millionaires. Even as they wail and gnash at every minor setback properly functioning government gives them. Portraying functioning government as the failure. Combined with the fact that you have to be intelligent and articulate to convince others of your viewpoint. Any old thug can get people’s support by threatening their life or livelihood, as the wealthy do. This is why as a species we will exterminate ourselves most likely.
They are very good for the economic elite and voted to power by idiots that think they’ll reap a fraction of the benefits of the economic elite. Also bigots and extremists love the right wing because everything in society will get worse so more people will be uphappy which will in turn feed more xenophobia and more extremism.
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Usual reason. Traditional parties for one reason or another get incompetent leaders unable to grow the economy and improve living standards, young people lose hope and stop joining the traditional parties, which means they have no new flux of talent, meaning things are ripe for populists to take over. Often times, one of the establishment parties positions itself in such a way it claims it is the final defence against populism, negating the traditional opposition (prime example: Macron). Most European countries have had a bad experience with communism more recently than with Nazis, which means the right wing parties tend to have an easier time as they are farther away from memory
“incompetent”
Looks over at soaring corporate profits.
Right… sure
If you are ever able, come to Portugal. Beautiful country, my home. Some of the grossest mismanagement I’ve ever seen, and the opposition hasn’t been able to put up good candidates for a while now, and despite the awful state of public services and the economy, the several scandals, there is a reasonable chance that the party that is in government will remain in power. (also a chance of a parliament deadlock)
Signing what treaties?
Treaties is maybe not the right word in English. NATO application for one, American military facilities in Sweden is another.
what are they actually doing about it?
Europe can’t do anything about it, that’s interfering with another country’s politics.
Yea the US has never done that, especially not to its “allies” so of course none of those “allies” are allowed to do it to the US.
I’m sure the country with probably the most coups of others wouldn’t do such a thing as pick marionettes for others… Right??
Many European countries have massively increased military spending and are reviving disbanded military units. What more do you expect them to do?
I guess the parent comment is implying they should have their own misinformation agenda to steer trump?
European countries have actually been spending a lot more on military lately. Whether that has something to do with the threat of another Trump presidency or the threat from Russia, I don’t know. Maybe both.
Trump presidency or the threat from Russia
What’s the difference? (see also: AFD, National Rally, Tories)
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he’s jumping to Putin’s tune
He’s entirely mercenary. Putin knew how to stroke his ego, but so did Steven Miller and Jared Kushner and Kim Kardashian. The folks with the most influence over Trump are, ultimately, the folks who happen to be in the room with him at any given moment. If you think Trump ratcheting tensions in Ukraine back in 2017, when he greenlit tens of millions in in javelin missiles, benefited Putin…
These Republicans will absolutely follow the piper toward their Russian overlords
There are some far more wealthy and influential overlords in the domestic market that they’re happy to cater towards first and foremost. Escalating the conflict in Europe so they can grow fat selling everyone the ropes they use to hang one another has been a lucrative model of western business since the Napoleonic Era.
This is the libertarian model of western business. Russia can burn. Europe can burn. America burn. None of it matters, just so long as I get to make bank.
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That the elite are playing both Putin and Trump to destabilize the world entirely
That individual actors constantly fixated on their own self-interest has resulted in global destabilization. This isn’t a global villainous cabal of American Republicans and Russian white nationalists and Italian / Japanese / Argentinian fascists. Its just a bunch of greedy cowards grasping at whatever they can get.
Arms dealing is absurdly lucrative, so it pulls in these vampires like an exposed artery. But if they can go back to minting bitcoins with public infrastructure or press-ganging migrant refugees into serf-like farm labor positions, they’ll do that too.
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I like, less and less, thinking of the ‘elite’ as ‘individual actors’ when they’re ‘acting’ in favor of their shared interest.
But this can’t be denied. A lot of these guys, particularly at the highest levels, might have a shared class consciousness but they aren’t friends with one another. They routinely backstab and undermine each other for their positions.
There is a broad ideology that they all propagate, but when it comes time for a guy like Ted Cruz or Bob Menendez or Peter Thiel or Jamie Dimon to make a move, one will just as happily shiv the other to reach the next rung on the ladder. They aren’t loyal to their countries, as illustrated by how frequently they’ll sell everyone else out for a leg up. Nationalism is, at best, a defense mechanism behind which they can hide when they get caught doing something nakedly corrupt or socially destructive.
Are we arguing that a specific class of people are controlling* governments and propaganda, to control government celebrities (Trump and Putin) to sow chaos and enrich their combined interests?
Putin is, himself, under the thumb of a cadre of fellow plutocrats in his own home country. Guys like Lisin and Abramovich have at least as much impact on his decisions as the Ellen Chao’s Foremost Group and Lachlan Murdoch’s FOX Corp have on Trump’s. And these players are all in an endless struggle for market dominance in their own spheres of influence, with Murdoch feuding against Brian Roberts of Comcast and Chao pitted against the Møller family that owns Maersk.
Yes, they all hate any kind of labor organizing. They all profit from the endless demand on their baskets of natural resources created by escalating conflicts in Europe and the Middle East. And they all want to have some kind of toddy in office, rather than a proper populist divorced from the demands of the wealthiest families.
But which toddy? Who gets the lion’s share of the profits? Which batch of proles get to fill the ranks of middle managers at the expense of their regional neighbors? Those questions decide who actually commands the economy at large. And they are far from settled.
I disagree. I think it’s a global cabal of Russo-aligned neo fascists. The KGB turned Trump in the 80s.
I think it’s a global cabal of Russo-aligned neo fascists.
Wouldn’t be the first time someone suggested the world’s problems could be laid at the feet of a secret cabal of evil foreigners. Hell, this was at the heart of the Red Scares of the 1910s, the 1930s, and 1950s.
The KGB turned Trump in the 80s.
More likely the reverse. Trump was laundering money for the plutocrats that would eventually take over the Russian state, most likely on behalf of American intelligence or some other domestic private interests. The 80s and 90s made a lot of bag men a lot of money, from Jeffery Epstein to John Gutfreund to Carl Ichan to George Soros. But Trump is notably shit at his job, so he never approached the heights of his NY peers.
The two likely knew one another, given Putin’s rapid climb from mayor to parliamentarian to president. But Trump’s absolutely fucking shameless. What would you do to compromise him that his political opponents haven’t already lobbed out on the campaign trail? Dude was certainly taking bribes, particularly through the Kushner family. But “turned”? Fucking please.
That’s what you call it when you make someone your agent. Turned.
Its what you call it when you make someone else’s agent your own.
I’ve seen absolutely nothing to suggest Trump is loyal to anyone except himself.
Oh the Republicans see it all right. They are all for it.
He is def not working for China and Russia
Regarding the nearly $8 million he received from foreign nations while in office he said he was “doing services for them” and “I don’t get $8 million for doing nothing.”
He freely admitted as much.
What a pathetic loser, selling out the country for $8 million. America’s rich sneeze $8 million, Trump is a poor broke boy.
If Trump was attacked, I’d definitely help!
By the way it is now US law that pulling out of NATO requires Senate approval. Weird how they had to pass that.
A treaty is not valid because a paper was signed. Trump does not need to leave NATO in order to make NATO invalid. A statement like the one in the article is enough. Ultimately, NATO is about trusting that the other members will come help you. Once that trust is gone, NATO is just a piece of paper(well technically more but still).
There are ways around that.
Judges
Commander in Chief
and also said “Nato is dead”
Dude 100% doesn’t know what nato is.
NATO is dead
- Nietzshit
It’s amazing how many Americans think NATO will fall apart to pieces without the US.
The US is the backbone of NATO and Ukraine + Palestine/Iran/Yemen + China + whatever is popping off in Ecuador and Venezuela right now is definitely showing the limits of American military intervention.
The multitude of NATO members still functionally exist, but they aren’t in any real position to support or defend one another. Just look at the current protests in Poland against Ukrainian trucks coming into the country. Or the way Turkey (NATO’s second largest military behind the US) seems content to play both ends against the middle. The UK, at this point, is an absolute joke. I guess they’ve always got France.
Hell, look at how US insistence in backing Israel’s genocide in Gaza is dissolving decades of diplomacy between the various Middle Eastern states. The cornerstone of the Mediterranean is collapsing into civil war at a moment when Europeans would really prefer a big chunk of the American Navy wasn’t diverted south of the Suez.
Its a fair cry from dead, but this is the worst NATO has looked in my own living memory.
Well, I wasn’t talking about the veracity of the statement. Just stating trump is too dumb to know what nato is, other than what he can gather that it does for him personally (which is nothing, hence why “it’s dead” to him). That said, the comment was also made nearly 4 years ago now, so I doubt he had all that in mind when he made the claim.
trump is too dumb to know what nato is
He loves to exaggerate for attention and he knows the NATO coalition has been struggling for the last decade. Telling the individual members that they all need to fend for themselves (by purchasing into American-made weapons industries) because the organization is “dead” is more about being used-car-salesmen shady than foreign-policy-stupid.
That said, the comment was also made nearly 4 years ago now, so I doubt he had all that in mind when he made the claim.
There’s a running joke - one that Obama alluded to as he was leaving office when he demanded a gold watch from Boeing for eight years of service - about how the primary role of the Presidency is to just selling America’s shit abroad. “NATO is dead, now y’all have to pony up for our military surplus” is just Trump’s version of this.
Nothing trump says ever means anything, except the most base, grossest gruntings about sex. Everything else - please ignore.
Unless he really does mean it and tries to play it off as a joke when the crowd turns on him
Nitpick; Trump never plays his statements off as a joke. His sycophants do, but never the man himself.
Remember everyone being shocked by, ‘I don’t kid’: Trump says he wasn’t joking about slowing coronavirus testing?
He says what he means, and he’s quite literal. Major reason his detractors get confused. Yes, he said that. Yes, he meant it literally.
Sane people: “Politicians can’t talk that way!”
Trump supporters: “He speaks truth!”
I kinda get the nut cases on this one. I’ve always wanted a politician that “tells it like it is”, with cojones. I just don’t like Trumps “truth”.
Speaking of crowds turning on Trump, I gotta say, it was kind of amusing to witness how desperately he wanted credit for the COVID vaccines but had to stop talking about it because his plague rat base boo’d him for promoting vaccination at one of his own klan rallies.
The only thing stopping it from being downright hilarious was that, well, ya know… It was a deadly serious public health crisis being exasperated by god damn morons.
1 million dead Americans under his watch. Including my mother. I will never forgive, never forget. And now plenty more are dying for lack of being vaccinated, and killing the rest of us for lack of a fucking mask.
No way. His stupid ass tells you exactly what he’s going to do. When he says US won’t help, it won’t.
Even having Trump on the ballot is risking civil war or at least collapsing of the union. I imagine a fight over him lying that he won again will be enough of a spark in the powder room.
And remember, the problem has NEVER been Trump. He’s just a stupid, fat, orange moron. The US is fucked bc Trump supporters exist and are tolerated.
The GOP gives aid and comfort to the enemies of the constitution and the country. They’re not a legitimate party, or even citizens.
There’s a very very very very small part of me that wants to see a civil war over Trump.
Then we’d have American civil war causes:
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conservatives killing our fellow citizens over fucking slavery.
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conservatives killing our fellow citizens over the worlds dumbest con man…
What a history book that would be…
I understand the emotional response of “time to Sherman the south again”, but I NEVER want to see a civil war here. Plus complicating the matter is, a lot of people have nobody to fight for. Why would anyone lay their lives down for the Dems. My personal best GUESS is that it’d devolve into small regional struggles, along with a what the fuck happens to the military and all the bases, etc.
What I do know is that once we burn down the south again, we’re NOT repeating one of the greatest mistakes ever of reconstruction, nor allowing the traitor states back in the union (if some form of union still exists in the aftermath). Fool us once…
LOL right on with the history book!
Oh 100% agreed, I don’t want any of the violence or death, I don’t want to Sherman the South or anything. The “very very very small part of me” just wanted it for the “joke” I made about the causes they fight for lol
I feel you. LOL
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> GOP gives aid and comfort to the enemies of the constitution and the country
I don’t think the protesters arrested at L and 12 on Jan 20, 2017 would agree, and they were more committed to stopping Trump’s presidency than anyone I can think of.
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What treason? The US isn’t in “open hostilities” with any of the nations he’s been alleged to have conspired with.
Legal definitions matter, unless you’re openly advocating for extra judicial action??
The fact that everyone knows otherwise is troubling
Can we just call him “puppet-o-puttin” already?
I will mark in celebration the last day I ever hear of this despicable human. “Shut up, man.”
Careful, Donny-boy. Daddy Putin isn’t going to be happy if you give up the game with only a few months to go
Yeah, I came across a Russian troll disguising as faux-centrist-progressive advocating for American isolationism, stating that Trump is for the better than Biden. American foreign policy has obviously been detrimental except when it’s a just war and in support of a country attacked unprovoked, like Ukraine. Said commenter says Ukraine is a corrupt country anyhow and losing so it’s a lost cause (the Russo-Ukraine war is in a stalemate objectively speaking). He also argued Joe Biden is worse than Trump for supporting Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza so Trump is better foreign policy wise, even though Trump is way friendlier to Israel by setting up the US embassy in Eastern Jerusalem.
The MIC says otherwise Mr Trump. Being a part of NATO seems to be quite profitable
