- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
The United Nations’ top court opens hearings Thursday into South Africa’s allegation that Israel’s war with Hamas amounts to genocide against Palestinians, a claim that Israel strongly denies.
Imma go ahead and put this edit at the top.
Edit: the following legal explanation does not absolve Israel from other war crimes they have definitely committed such as collective punishment. It’s just explaining why “genocide” is not an appropriate claim.
Edit over, original post follows.
The problem with the genocide claim is actually laid out by a lawyer in the article. I’m sure this comment will get removed because every time I try to explain this someone reports me.
Genocide is the intentional murdering of a race or ethnic group. Hamas is not an ethnic group, that’s the intended target as long as Israel warns or attempts to move civilian populations away from bombing targets it’s going to be really hard to prove they are intentionally killing those civilians. Israel has done those measures the entire conflict.
The civilian casualty number could be much higher and not matter to the definition of genocide. Because genocide requires intent, regardless of the number.
For a modern day example of genocide look at Sudan, where people are going door to door shooting members of an ethnic group. That’s genocide. The intentional killing of an ethnic group.
Your analysis is flawed.
Full genocide definition: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
It needs 2 elements. Mental and physical.
Israel destroyed all but 5 hospitals in the whole region that housed 2.3 million people;
They are performing a total blockade that cuts off water, food, electricity, gas (also known as siege);
1.9 million people are displaced from their home;
They are intentionally bombing refugee camps they themselves declared “safe zones”;
There is plenty of evidence, half of which is provided by Israel or IDF themselves, to prove the mental intent of genocide. They just feel untouchable with blind US support and their universal defense of Holocaust, which they use as both sword and shield.
Out of 5 physical acts that qualify as genocide, Israel checks 4 of them.
Nope. We’ve had tons of cases of them moving people to “safe areas” and then bombing them.
That doesn’t matter in a legal sense.
Okay my dudes. Look. Israel thinks UN court is a kangaroo court, but they’re sending a crack team of lawyers. Why? PR. Because they know they’ll win and then they can say “we defended our actions in court and won”
Sure, take them to court, but take them to court for things they’d actually lose.
How is telling civilians ‘go here for safety’ and then dropping bombs on that location not intent?
Or are you saying it’s an intentional war crime just not genocide in particular?
Second part
It… uh… Does? It’s a pretty strong signal of intent.
Prove it was intentional and not a misfire, a problem with civilians accessing up to date information etc etc. Gaza is very small and very densely populated. You have to prove without a shadow of a doubt intent here. It ain’t gonna happen.
Again, you’d be better off taking Israel to court on war crimes you can actually prove. Ones that don’t require proving this intent.
Which is why everyone knows that you can’t carpet bomb it without genocidal consequences.
They’ve known this for decades and still they keep doing it. Your bad faith excuses for genocide are more stale than Alexander Fleming’s bread.
This right here shows you didn’t actually understand what I’ve been writing.
Nope. Saying “I don’t approve of it but it’s not genocide” when it’s clearly genocide is denying and thereby excusing genocide, no matter how much you scowl at it.
The reason you’re getting so much push back on this, is because People rightly recognize the limitations inherent within the legal framework. On top of qualified immunity, and the disastrous effects money and privilege have on the outcome of the system, you get this. Where we all are seeing openly, plainly, that isreal is murdering innocent civilians. broad daylight, recorded with context, murder.
We finally get some good news about Someone holding them accountable, and then here comes someone saying “TECHNICALLY, they’re not doing anything wrong.”
I know you’re not saying they aren’t doing wrong, but that’s what it feels like. just another rug pulling moment where beleaguered, war and disaster weary people see a glimmer of justice, and have it snatched away in the same breath. It’s infuriating. It’s insulting. And it’s everyday.
While I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. I don’t fully agree with it either.
Because what I’m actually stating is. Don’t charge a pedophile with murder, or don’t charge a murderer with child molestation.
Words and charges matter.
Think about it like this, since there’s no hard evidence that this is a genocide because of the legal definition. Israel is likely going to win this case. That means they can say they defended their actions in court and won, can’t we all agree that’s bad?
Charge them with what you can actually prove. They have committed war crimes, it’s just not likely feasible to prove this is genocide without a lot more evidence.
Don’t get me wrong, sure investigate it, make sure it isn’t. But…
Okay well you can also wait until the court dismisses the case on the papers because it doesn’t meet the legal definition.
True, but they’re only PART of the target group. The target group is all Palestinians, over half of whom are innocent women and children.
They don’t. In fact, they order civiliansTO bombing sites
No they haven’t. Stop lying.
For which there is ample fucking evidence!
First off, please read my fucking comments, I don’t support what the Israel government is doing. You’re having an emotional response because I’m showing this situation is more complicated.
None of that is “ample fucking evidence” if I’m lying so are you.
I’m sorry this conflict is more complicated than you’d like, but one person who happens to be in a government making a statement does not mean that’s the government’s opinion. You need this thing called evidence. Give me a whistle blower, give me documents. Don’t give me one or two crazy people, there are crazy people everywhere and they aren’t representative of everyone.
Do you think that it’s America’s opinion that there are Jewish space lasers? Because MTG an American politician made that comment. Or that after rape you should get a shot of estrogen from the ER, that one’s from Ron Paul. Those must be America’s opinion according to the logic you’re presenting.
Also with regards to the safe zone issues. If that happened frequently you’d have an argument, and if it keeps happening that’s great evidence. But it’s not happened that much so it’s going to be really easy to argue that it was an accident, a misfire, broken communication etc etc etc.
Again, there are war crimes Israel has committed, if you take them to kangaroo court, you should come at them correctly.
I read your fucking comments. You start out by saying you don’t condone the atrocities and then you rattle off a bunch of long disproved Israeli government propaganda in defense of the actions you supposedly don’t approve of and in an attempt to say that it’s not genocide.
That’s not “things being more complicated”, that’s tired “both sides are bad so this one isn’t that bad” bullshit that hinges on a shitload of false premises.
You’re halfway right: I’m reacting with annoyance and disgust at your pathetic attempts to muddy the waters of what is the worst genocide the world has seen since the Balkan wars of the 90s.
Regardless of anything else going on, the most important questions have simple yes and no answers:
2)Does that make it genocide? Yes.
Dude, the least reliable source of the 4 I gave was Newsweek. The others were Huffington Post, CNN and Haaretz (THE most trusted newspaper in Israel) citing sources within the Israeli government itself.
In what fucking world is that “one or two crazy people”??
As for the rest of your ramblings, they’re so off base and unhinged that I’m not going to waste any time and effort addressing them.
Have the day you deserve.
Did you even read the sources you sent me? Because it’s this world. Like random politicians making crazy claims is not evidence(hence me bringing up MTG and friends). Your crazy ramblings are getting old.
And I guess calling Israel out for war crimes is “disproved Israeli government propaganda”? You clearly haven’t read my comments.
I hope you have the day you deserve too. (I’ll give you a hint, the day you deserve is a day in middle school English class to work on your reading comprehension)
Removed by mod
Thanks mate. I know I’m useful. As are dictionaries, and the lawyers that I’m basically just quoting…
I spread no misinformation. My entire stance was effectively “it’s hard to prove intent” but good job getting aggressively upset about common knowledge.
You know it wasn’t a typo right? You’re a useful tool to the Israeli government that’s currently committing genocide lol.
Prove it. Give any evidence, prove that you’re smarter than basically every lawyer outside of the South Africa team and prove genocide.
If you think I’m a supporter of the Israeli government you didn’t actually read my comments.
You people act like this conflict is between sports teams, fucking hell.
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/10/biden-israel-genocide-lawsuit/?
Do you want me to go over there myself and rub your fuckin face in it?
Yes I would, I mean. There’s literally no evidence in that article. It’s just detailing a situation, a horrific situation that needs to stop. But there’s no evidence of genocide. Please again, provide evidence.
Yes, Israel has committed other war crimes and should be held responsible. But that’s not the argument.
I’m sure you’ll quietly change your mind over the course of the next few years. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
We need more nuanced, objective takes like this. Thanks for bringing some rationality to this discussion, even though you’re getting dogpiled.
People handle this situation like it’s a sporting event. Like one side can do no wrong and if you’re not in lock step with one side then you must be in full collusion with the other. Completely ignoring that one side is a terrorist organization that took over by force, the other side is an apartied government that’s perpetrated a siege for years, both have civilian deaths on their hands and caught in the middle are actual people that didn’t ask for this.
But yeah, thanks for your comment.
You are correct on all points.
The numbers versus Israel’s capabilities speak for itself.
1% of the civilian population of Gaza is dead.
Gaza is a tiny area. Most Palestinians don’t live there. The total percentage of Palestinian people killed in this war is 0.004%.
How is that a genocide?
If Israel was trying to wipe out the Palestinian people, they have the capability. Are we saying they are doing an intentional genocide but it’s just the most incompetent genocide in history?