Hello fellows,
I’m currently looking in 13-14" laptops with no immediate needs for one but just because it’s exciting. I love my Dell XPS but I feel I should support companies with which I share more common views. I could make the effort to go a with a less attractive look (especially for bezels) but I don’t want to go wrong with hardware so what are your thoughts on Framework, Starlab, Purism, and System76? I’ll be running Arch and I tend to have a preference for Framework for now.
Do you have feedback (positive and negative) to share on any of these companies?
Thanks for the knowledge you’ll bring me. That’ll be extremely useful when time comes to go with a new machine.
Update 1: Still wonderful to be part of such a great community. Thanks for all the great feedback (looking for more :) ).
So far everyone is standing behind Framework. Anyone with a less positive experience or who would like to speak for the other companies?
Update 2: Thank you fellows for the time you’ve spent to share your honest feedback! I didn’t want to influence your inputs but you all confirmed the Framework picture I had in mind. It’s a piece of mind to read real world experience so thanks again. I was surprised to not see the system76 community speaks louder. Anyway, when time comes I will (virtually) push Framework shop’s door.
I have a framework, pretty happy with it - Arch installed without any hitches and runs well. Only downside is how long it took to go from deposit to actually paying/shipping.
I’ve been wanting a Framework so bad. When I start working again (which should be soon), I’m going to save up for one.
The modularity, repairability, and price for specs are what attracts me compared to the other companies mentioned in this post.
I love my Framework. It may not feel as polished physically as the XPS. If you can find one in the wild to touch and try, I would recommend doing so.
They’re unfortunately harder to find in the wild than pokemons 😂 Have you experienced long delivery time as mentioned above?
I lucked out. When I was ready to pull the trigger it was just a couple of weeks before the next batch shipped. Got mine in just a few weeks.
How long have you been waiting? Was it during the pandemic (when everyone was using this as an excuse)? Do you know if it seems to be a current issue?
Ordered on August 2nd, Shipped November 17th of 2023
If that’s something usual I’ll definitely avoid Framework. When I order a laptop it’s because I need a replacement very quickly for work.
If you’re in the US, the 13 is fully in stock and should ship on a week. OP may have preordered his
I didn’t think about that. If the usual shipping delay is reasonable then I feel better.
Most of the delays are effectively from pre-ordering. I ordered mine just after last Christmas, got it the first week in January. Would have probably been faster without the holidays. Also, get the AMD model if you can, it’s much better than the Intel offerings.
Great to hear! Going with AMD is something I’ve tried to do for a long time but I was not lucky with availability, I’ll definitely take the opportunity to do so with the next laptop!
Will not touch if they don’t support Coreboot/Libreboot (they have the profit margin to do it)
I currently have a System76 laptop, and sincerely regret my purchase. When I purchased it, the Framework was not out yet - I wanted to support a company that supports right-to-repair, and figured since they controlled the hardware, firmware, and software (Pop!_OS), it would be a good, stable experience. It has not been, and support has generally been poor. I know other people have had better experiences than I have, but personally, I won’t be buying from them again.
I haven’t personally used Purism, but former co-workers spoke really poorly of them. They were trying to buy a big batch for work, and said the build quality was awful. Additionally: https://youtu.be/wKegmu0V75s
I have one problem with my s76, the usb c port rly sucks. Other than that the laptop runs very well but something so simple shouldnt be an issue imo there are some build quality issues going on…
My usb-c ports can be a little touchy, too. The SD card slot is also really bad - the card has to be positioned perfectly to slide in, or it jams. I’m also upset that the usb-c port can only be used for charging after a full boot. It cannot be used to perform firmware updates, or even to do a ram test. This means day-to-day, usb-c can be used, but I have to keep track of the barrel charger, just in case. This, of course, was not specified on the product details page (nor, I think, that only one of the two usb-c ports could be used for charging - it’s possible I overlooked that, but still frustrating on an expensive laptop that lists usb-c charging as a feature).
Dang, I did not even realize that about the usb c port only being usable after a full boot, since I just got it. I need to find out where I put that barrel charger. Haven’t tested the sd card slot yet but will try and report back.
You might get lucky. Based on https://support.system76.com/articles/system-firmware/, it doesn’t seem to be all models. Note however that the list is out-of-date; my galp5 is not listed, but does not work. Fortunately, I found this out doing a RAM check, and not a firmware upgrade.
Thanks very much for this important feedback. Framework is definitely taking the lead in responses to this post.
That’s actually a bit disappointing to hear. I have always been interested in system76 since their existence, but I’ve never actually purchased anything from them. Was about to impulse buy a desktop PC from them, but ultimately decided against it because it wasn’t really what I needed.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/wKegmu0V75s
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Framework
Any more details? ;)
If you drop it and break the frame you can easily replace it.
And the company has been ultra-transparent about any issues so far.
Also all the spare parts are available straight from Framework and especially the consumables are cheo.
So far this is really what makes me leaning toward Framework. But you know, when something seems too good to be true… If Framework is as perfect as it seems to be I can’t wait for the need of a new laptop :D
It’s terrible because it’s great and I just can’t shake the feeling that there’s an investor lurking somewhere, waiting for the right moment to jack up the profit margins, fucking up an extremely nice thing. If Framework ever goes public, that’ll probably be the beginning of it getting worse.
The bad thing is that it’s way more expensive than similar specs on another laptop. The other option doesn’t have all the fancies of repairsbility and replacement but it’s also way cheaper.
Is it way more expensive? I thought it’s at a similar price level to the comparable laptops like XPS 13 and X1 Carbon.
Looked just now, XPS 13 starts at CAD $1350, and the Framework 13 starts at CAD $1420. Both have similar specs.
That would be another terrible story about a great idea turning into BS for profit only. Fingers crossed that it won’t happen.
The only thing that I’ve seen is Framework’s customer service is unbelievably fantastic–until it’s not. They had some deceptive marketing on their SSD modules, which they marketed as being useful for booting an OS on, but then later said on their forums that they weren’t designed to be used that way.
The average customer won’t have any issues, but every once in a while a customer reports feeling burned because they had persistent issues that Framework was unable to solve. After RMAing a number of times their support tells you to pound sand.
Check the outlet online. Refurb parts and whole laptops for a nice discount. No sense in buying one brand at this point since the core components are a bit behind from the initial development and release cycles getting worked out.
I’m not yet in need for a laptop but I’ll definitely check the outlet. With the replacement parts it can also be another advantage where you may be able to buy a laptop and replace what you need still for a good price.
That’s the entire point of the Framework platform.
Right. I was more asking if the OP had any complaints, even minor. Or anything that makes framework standing out except the obvious unique aspects of repairability, extensibility, customization. I’m already clearly sold on that :D
Your comment is one of few that really deserves a downvote - but there are at least 30 people that interpret the downvote and upvote function differently. Lucky you. Downvoting should be used to identify poor comment quality, not disagreement. Your comment quality is very poor.
Since it was not mentioned yet: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en
If I would not get so many old computing devices that fulfill my needs (I don’t game on PC/Linux) I guess I’d buy one of those. I live in Switzerland and having a german company for support would be superior to me. And I heard that build quality should be great 😇 😂I guess I’d really like to have one, but as I said, for my needs, my macbookpro5,3 running arch does the job.
can confirm that tuxedo is great if you are in Europe. It has been my daily driver for 3 years with debian sid and it’s great!
I’ve had the TUXEDO Pulse 15 from tuxedo computers for about 2 years and it’s great.
Nice to hear 😄
Framework. I’ve run Debian, Fedora and for a while now NixOS, all of which have worked flawlessly.
I did have to replace the heatsink/fan part on mine because the fan bearing started clicking, but I’m sure that was just a first generation product issue (I was one of the first batches). I was glad to be able to do the replacement myself at relatively low cost and the process couldn’t have been easier (took about 30 minutes).
My previous machine was a 2013-ish ThinkPad X series and the Framework absolutely blows it out of the water. I’m looking forward to upgrading mine to a Ryzen motherboard sometime in the not so distant future.
Wonderful to hear! Thanks for bringing one more vote to Framework :)
framework are low in numbers, id check out tuxedo for linux laptops
I’d be careful about buying ‘niche’ brands like framework and system76.
You’re going to be paying more for inferior hardware, and a lot of the people on these forums don’t really understand this.
Make sure you’re getting it because you want it, not because someone else wants it for you.
Influence is a curse in today’s world. I’ve made this final selection of brands based on personal choice and for reasons exposed in this post. But it’s all personal so you may disagree with some/all candidates and that’s perfectly fine. I’ve posted here to actually collect as much opinions as possible so thanks for sharing yours.
Companies always find a way to justify for higher price to sell you not that good hardware or to overprice their stuff for non sense reasons. As anyone else (except fan boys of any given brand) I’m running away from that. In my personal views, companies on this list have reasonable offers considering their history, clients pool, philosophy…
Framework is maybe the best deal here because it has good price and all parts of their machines are replaceable. And again, prices for the parts are fair. So in the long run, users may be winners if the company doesn’t crash. If it does then it won’t be worth than having bought from another company. With all the options to build the laptop you want for your needs it really make me feel like customizing my Linux system but from a hardware standpoint. It’s a big plus for me to pay only for what I want/need and with them you can go even further by physically positioning your ports on the fly. That’s an unseen degree of freedom and it has real world applications.
Framework prices aren’t cheap unless you really fudge the numbers. That said, it will still be my next laptop, because I’m fairly confident it will be cheaper long-term
I agree it’s clearly a win in the long run. Also their prices are not cheap but fair, even though you’d pay ~$100 less than an XPS for the exact same specs (but a higher res display and webcam with Framework).
I have a framework laptop and endeavour os with gnome de. I’ve had no problems with it. I mainly use it for dev work and web browsing. I enabled gnome muli-gesture (basically the same gestures on a Mac trackpad). I’ve had no problems with that either.
I’d recommend it.
Thanks for sharing this feedback. One more point for Framework :)
I’m a fan of refurbished ThinkPads myself, but that is mostly for money reasons. If I had money to blow, I would probably also buy a Framework
Framework also has an outlet, just in case you want to take a look ;)
I had a System76 10 years ago. The customer service was excellent (several months after receiving my laptop, they sent me a replacement keyboard, because they didn’t like the one it shipped with). The build quality was meh, it was a plastic body and didn’t hold up well to wear and tear, but it’s in my closet and still works. I haven’t tried their aluminum bodies.
I now have a Framework. It arrived with trackpad issues, and one of the HDMI adapters didn’t work at all. They shipped me replacements for both at no cost to me (except time). It’s been nice knowing that any other issues I do have can be replaced piecewise. Also I like that the webcam/mic have physical kill switches.
Very nice to read this feedback. I’m very sold to Framework after all the great things posted here. An impeccable customer support like the one you describe means a lot about a company.
I’ve had a framework for 2 years now. It’s run fedora, manjaro (arch based) and Debian with no major issues. Manjaro had some problems with KDE and the high DPI screen. Sometimes the scaling was inconsistent between apps. Fedora just works.
Only hardware issue is the battery life is just not that great. And the trackpad doesn’t always work property, but I think that was a first generation issue that’s been resolved since.
Thank you for taking time to share this detailed feedback. Very useful!
I’m going to add my +1 for framework, I got the batch 5 original framework 13 with pop os on it and a windows 10 copy on a 250gb expansion card. Its been my main work and play laptop and I enen replaced the main chassis after it got smashed (long story) involving the sidewalk. Anyway I love what framework is doing and the decision has arguably already paid off within these last two years.
While I’m yet to do it myself, I would suggest getting a Thinkpad T480 and upgrading its RAM. The reason you want a T480 is because it was the last Thinkpad to have user removable parts. One tip: when using eBay, make sure you filter out the T480s. The T480s is not the same as the T480 since it doesn’t have user removable parts.
Second the T480, it’s a great Linux laptop and very upgradable. If possible try to make sure it already has an NVMe or SATA M.2 in the main drive bay. Switching from a 2.5 requires an adapter board and different cables.
Noted.
Thanks for the tip. I know a lot of people are going for Thinkpads and you’re specific recommendation may seem interesting but I’d like to support other companies like the ones I bought from so far (Toshiba, Lenovo, Dell, Vaio, Acer, PB, Razer) and I’d also like to build my own laptop from the start.
Of course. Just remember this when buying a laptop (and by extension a printer): FUCK HP!
HP are pretty awful when it comes to shenanigans with ink cartridges and all that, but HPLIP is great and deserves some credit.
I hate Lenovo and I have a Lenovo laptop. The company is shit but the laptops are great. I justify it by buying used.
I’ve been disappointed by them and as you can tell I’m not the kind of person to be married with a brand :D I may go back to them one day if there’s really one machine I want. Until then I’ll stay away from them. Also I really would like to support a company with a better philosophy (from my POV).
What parts other than one stick of RAM aren’t upgradeable on the t480s? The processor? I’ve seen screen swaps, touchpad swaps, keyboard, just about everything. I got one back in the summer, added a stick of RAM to get up to 16gb, it’s running at 3200mhz like the other one, and swapped in a new OEM battery. It’s been great. I also recently bought a e495 for around 60 bucks, it’s thicker and plastic-ey, but also a solid Linux machine running an AMD CPU. Are the newer t14s really that crippled in repairability?
Lol that’s 6 years old!
I am currently reviving an T410 for my kids. I put an 250 GB SSD inside and the newest Linux Mint and play around with it now. I am still on 4 GB Ram, as I didn’t want to spend the 60€ to upgrade to 8 GB, yet.
It runs great. I can watch YouTube, browse the web and rip some of my CDs for my NAS and my Kids Audio Players with that sweet internal DVD drive. My guess is 60% of the people would not need more computing power. And this machine was released in 2010.
Yeah it is but it’s a pretty capable laptop. I’ve replaced mine with a Framework 11th gen for my daily use but my T480 is currently hosting 10 VMs for my homelab. It’s got the base CPU, i5-8250U, 64GB of RAM and a 4TB SSD and is plenty of horsepower. I really only got the Framework because I was excited about the product and company, not because I was unsatisfied with the T480. I highly recommend it.
They’re all aight, but avoid asus like the plague, they don’t last very long and have tons of incompatibilities with linux. I’ve only had mine for 3 years and it already needs a new mobo as the pci lanes for wifi and bluetooth suddenly died
Thanks but I’ve already limited my choice to Framework, Starlab, Purism, and System76 as mentioned beside the title of this post.
I would try to avoid any kind of brand-loyalty.
Find something that meets your specifications and try it out for yourself. If it works, keep it. If it doesn’t, return it.
Just about every retailer has guaranteed returns for 30 days on computers.
Check out https://old.reddit.com/r/LaptopDeals/ daily until you find something that meets your needs and budget.
Thanks. That does not not really address my question but I certainly share your view as to not be married to a brand. My personal history and this post question are actually going that route.
Mainstream? Avoid anything other than Lenovo ThinkPads. Rather than trying to buy the freshest budget model, try for 1-2 generations old T serie flagship, or even L serie. Search <modelname> PSREF and check if a WWAN M.2 slot is available, so you can buy a $30 2230/2242 SSD for Windows, and make your machine have both Linux and Windows. ThinkPads have the best aftersales support and third party parts support, with open schematics and warranty that allows user tinkering.
Other boutique Linux catering brand options are already discussed so pointless.
Yeah Lenovo have always been really good for me with Linux. I think if I had the money I’d still go either Framework or System76, but my current laptop is just a mid-range Lenovo Ideapad and it seems to run any Linux thing I chuck at it quite happily.
You will not have troubles with Lenovo aftersales or parts support, that is the greatest benefit I think. It means basically you can hack through and run a laptop down to the ground.
Framework and ThinkPad have both been a really positive experience.
Thanks for the feedback.
Re your update.
My framework has been great, I’ve had no issues with it and I’m quite happy. Make sure to go with the matte screen though.
In saying that, I think I was happier with my thinkpad, but I have no good scientific reason for that, I suspect the nipple and keyboard are a big part of it.
Something tells me OP doesn’t share a lot of values with Lenovo!
I haven’t used Framework, but I’m a fan of most of the ThinkPad line. Not as good as the IBM days, but still a solid product.
Novacustom or System76, they actually use open Firmware.
Novacustom… Never heard of it. The almost insignificant disadvantage I can see so far for Framework is that they don’t use open-source boot. Everyone so far stand behind Framework. How would you sell me on System76 or Novacustom?
Framework tried Coreboot, has problems and gave up. When buying a Laptop with coreboot you support open Firmware Development for all CPUs, many board generations etc.
Just look at 3mdeb’s Dasharo guide. Its nearly as secure as Heads, on a modern Laptop!
Not true, firstly ‘framework’ never tried Coreboot they have provided boards to coreboot devs however, who’ve had issues including accidentally bricking the board. New boards have been shipped, and the origional fixed. They haven’t given up though completely and the work is still being done. There was a recent talk that had to be canceled due to the speaker getting sick on this subject. Work is likely still being done, but is slow, and will continue to be so.
Still though, there’s no evidence that framework has ever had or ever will have the intention of including core-boot by default. They’re simply supporting coreboot devs to make it compatable
The reasoning for why the others have it is likely due to system76 and nova customs using mostly generic parts like the shell and motherboard along with being around longer. It’s great to support a company that’s ensuring coreboot works on their system however and pushing towards a non-proprietary future
Thanks for clearing up. Frameworks are probably rather special and thus not as easy to coreboot
Yes, using coreboot would just have been nice to support open-source from all aspects.
