I am considering moving to Germany and was told that regions in the south are more conservative, so much so that an acquaintance ex-pat said they would never want to live there. Looking online there are some sources to support this notion but nothing concrete. I am wanting to move mostly because I loved the country and the people I met while traveling (specifically in Munich and Freiburg) but was hoping to land somewhere that queer folks are more accepted. I didn’t get any bad vibes while traveling but that was nearly a decade ago now.
Another German friend recommended moving to Berlin for these reasons and I’m wondering if German conservative is anything remotely close to US conservative. The conservatives near where I live now fly Trump and confederate flags, love to put those “I did that” Biden stickers on the gas pumps when prices go up, and the local schoolboard managed to pass anti-trans bathroom policies that affected something like 5 students in the entire district. Is it anything like this in parts of Germany?
German here. Lived in Hamburg and Munich for about half my life each. They call Bavaria the Texas of Germany, but that’s just in relation to the rest of Germany politically. German conservatism is nothing like American conservatism, thank God. Right-wing disinformation cancer is spreading in Germany, like it is anywhere else (AFD in the east). Any LGBTQ folks don’t need to worry in any big cities. I’d recommend Munich over Berlin, but that’s personal preference (Berlin is like Germany’s London, loud, dirty, exciting, more crime than any other part of Germany, which is still less than most places in the US). Like, you won’t ‘feel’ the difference between Hamburg and Munich politically. In Berlin you might find a few more people openly displaying their left or right leaning tendencies. It’s also much cheaper than Munich, not sure if that matters.
That’s encouraging to hear. I’m just worried about moving across the world to a place I really loved only to get crooked looks from neighbors when they see my partner and I together, which is exactly the sort of thing I want to get away from. I’m a software developer so I’ll likely need to move to a city to find work regardless, but really do enjoy the more rural settings. Thanks for the insight :)
How is your German? In Berlin you’ll be fine with English. In the other big cities, you’ll already notice less proficiency. You’ll be fine, but you’ll notice it from time to time and English speaking jobs will be few and far between. Rural areas are hopeless lol
You know I went to Europe for the first time thinking I was hopeless when it came to foreign languages. But after spending a week in Germany I could use basic greetings, numbers and was starting to understand some common phrases; a very fun experience honestly. I regret not continuing to learn formally, but if we commit to Germany then I’ll have a few years to take lessons beforehand.
Ideally I want to live rural and work remote, same situation I have here, but I understand that is a rare privilege and hard to find everywhere.
You could look into anywhere near the Rhine since even though the west is pretty industrialized, it gets very rural very fast unlike the US. That way you’re not giving up the bonuses of urban areas.
So keep in mind living rural and working remote may be harder here. Fiber networks are very uncommon and internet is nothing like in the US.
Also as others have mentioned German conservatives are more like conservative democrats in the US. AfD is more like our republicans.
Just a point to keep in mind Berlin, Munich, and Stuttgart are some of the most expensive cities in Germany. I am living in the Stuttgart area and renting is only about 20% less than D.C… But fibre internet is common and English is more common due to the US military presence.
It’s becoming better. Around here, they’re digging holes to install fiber every day.
It’s also about the people though. Been living in the south for some time. Hard to talk to people, even harder to make friends, very rural for the most part. I even would describe a city like Stuttgart as rural. At work people approached me and said „hey you also aren’t from the south right? I noticed“ and were happy to have someone to chitchat with.
Just my own experience… I’m very happy to have made the decision to move away again.
Maybe it’s easy if one isn’t a German since there are kind of expat communities? I don’t know.
Did you hear about AfD’s anti abortion policies that’s taking light ? Or even the ones were the criminalise LGBTQ communities as pedophiles and put up posters for the same ? German right wing is just as nutty ad American (or polish) right wing.
AfD is similar to Trump and DeSantis, no doubt. Difference is, Trump became President, DeSantis Governor. AfD is far away from that kind of power.
It is more conservative than the north but German conservatism isn’t quite as vile as the American flavor.
“Conservative” politicians here want to keep taxes for the wealthy low, suck off car manufacturers, keep marijuana banned (“it’s forbidden because it’s illegal”). In Germany, trying to enact an LGBTQ genocide is not really an ambition of the conservatives but of the fascist AfD which is strongest in eastern Germany but in recent polls got an uncomfortable 20% nationwide.
“Conservative” people in southern Germany will go to church, give you a weird side-eye if you work on a Sunday or have dyed hair, wear checkered shirts and get shitfaced at the biweekly state fair. Most are quite nice personally.
The towns and cities are way more progressive than the countryside and especially Munich which has had a socdem mayor for quite a while now. Hell the last csd had like half a million people, that’s nearly a third of the population.
people in southern Germany will go to church, give you a weird side-eye if you work on a Sunday or have dyed hair, wear checkered shirts and get shitfaced at the biweekly state fair.
Best summary of south Germany in one sentence
That’s basically the perfect answer already. I just want to add that OP might want to prefer a city with a university as they are usually even younger and more progressive than others. While I haven’t lived in Freiburg, it certainly would be a good choice if you value that.
It’s much the same here, although some cities are more welcoming than others. The hard part is finding a rural or semi rural area that is also accepting but near to a city that isn’t also white suburbia
Whats wrong with checkered shirt?
If you also like to consider other cities, Cologne might be something for you. It is known for it’s gay and rainbow communities. It even advertises LGBT+ scene events on it’s home page.
If you consider the area near Cologne and Düsseldorf along the Rhine, there are big cities but it gets more rural once you get further from the river. Jobs should be available there as well. Unfortunately, jobs without at least a fraction of office presence time are rare, even in IT.
Unless Munich, in this part of Germany, you walk into a bar a stranger but will find someone to talk to. People are warm and welcoming here. I cannot judge the English language proficiency though as a native. Besides, the local German accent can be just as puzzling here as in Bavaria. 🤣
Yes Im from a smaller city near cologne. Very pride and csd every year. Nice city, good people.
I went from north to south on my trip originally and I think I encountered exactly one German local who didn’t speak at least decent English the whole time. Also good to know about the accents! We thought we had learned how to say excuse me quite well but tried it in the south and got weird looks lol
Germany is more than Berlin and Munich. As a matter of fact, i know quite a few other cities that are much nicer and the cost of living there is way lower. Especially if you compare anything to Munich.
I’d say you’re fine as long as you stick to the cities, even smaller ones. Maybe have a look at the exact place if you consider moving to the most provincial countryside in Bavaria or the east. And don’t expect people there to speak english very well.
Considering ‘conservative’ people: The USA are on a different level than most of europe. 99% of conservatives here like things like health care. Many are okay with abortions being legal. And gas prices being high. And generally this country isn’t divided into two political groups. Most germans will happily let you live your life, and won’t bother you, even if they don’t agree. There are a few assholes, however.
I’m not queer or from the south myself, so i don’t really know what it’s like to be queer there. I think it should be alright.
You aren’t wrong, as long you stay in the Influence Area of the Cities you would at most find people who will Ignore you. There are a few outliers and I wouldnt recommend advertising it if you go to the countryside. But most people here are actually really Nice just a bit Conservative and Old fashioned.
I think I’m general you are right, the south is more Conservative. This ist probably because the south is rich. Most Money in Germany is produced in Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg (where I live) and Hesse. They cling to their money very badly, hence the conservative mindset. That being said, there are very progressive hotspots. The Capitals for example (Frankfurt, Munich, Stuttgart) are very open for differing views and Social political ideas. But you can go even better. If you look for City’s with high Student concentrations you go more and more left. I am from Tübingen and this place hates conservatives. Anti LGBTQ Ideas must fear for ther physical protection. The same thing will be true in Freiburg and Konstanz in BW but I am sure there are places in the other two country’s aswell. Can you give us an estimate where to go and how progressive the people should be? Then we will a place, I am sure.
Partner is looking to go to university (for law) and I’ll be either looking for a programmer position or trying to figure out a freelancer situation. What I’m seeing is that pretty much anywhere in Germany is a step up from the sinking ship that is the US right now in terms of conservative insanity. I prefer a quiet life mostly spent at home with pets and family with the option to go out on the town for a good meal and fun once in awhile or attend a festival a few times a year. Nightlife is preferred as well, sun bad
Freiburg seems like a good choice i live there currently. Nightlife is not crazy tho, just a few clubs and after midnight most is closed. There are regular city festivals and lakes to swim nearby. Also its the city with the most sun in Germany ocer the year.
We stayed in Freiburg for a week and loved every minute of it. It was our first choice until someone started me on this idea of the south being conservative. I understand cities in general are more liberal, especially university towns, but I don’t want to live in a haven surrounded by bigotry once you leave the city proper
Edit: Im not saying that’s what Freiburg is, I hope it isn’t.
Don’t worry the American conservative, is not comparable to German conservative. Right in Europe is more comparable to center Left in the US political spectrum. And Freiburg is more left than right for sure. The most right political spectrum in Germany you will find in east Germany Saxony.
As a SW-German, I’d say it is way more a rural vs. urban thing. In the greater Stuttgart area f.i. don’t worry about openly living a gay lifestyle. If you live out in the woods, it might be different, but not necessarily so.
That being said, SW’eners are generally way more conservative towards any kind of “fun” or “flamboyant“ things - legacy of the very pietist history here.
I would say that around Fasching time, things get pretty fun & flamboyant, even in the rural areas of BW.
Well, that’s your opinion….
Well I have seen some pretty conservative farmer types get on the village stage and dance in drag, but maybe you have been to some Fasching celebrations that were tame?
I found Fasching - at least for me - had almost always had kind of a staged and unnatural feel to it. It definitely does not meet my expectations for a liberal, welcoming vibe that encourages self-love and -expression. But that maybe just me…
Thank you for that thoughtful explanation. It’s a perspective I hadn’t considered.
As the others already said, it’s more a rural vs urban thing but yeah the south and especially bavaria is more conservative than the north or south (but the most conservative like you discribed with the stickers and all are living in east Germany except Berlin, cause Berlin is mostly a left oriented stand alone city). If you’re non white there would be at least a lot of staring, sometimes worse (spitting, shouting,…) mostly everywhere in Germany.
If you consider munich it shouldn’t be a problem as long as you don’t live in a village around the city. Cause Munich itself has a left political party for I don’t know how many years. That’s why mostly every other south Bavarian outside of Munich has the opinion that Munich doesn’t count as Bavaria. And as mentioned by others before Munich has some good queer stuff and the pride parade is one of the biggest in Germany and EU. I think this year around 500k people came and celebrated (Munich itself has ~1.4 million residents), but Munich doesn’t compare with Berlin(east), cologne(west) or Hamburg (north), but it’s still pretty good and the nature around munich is great!
So I would say if you really wanna live in a city it’s nothing like the crazy people you seem to have right now, but it’s not all happy sunshine as well and especially munich is expensive and one big bummer are the German people as well (cause we’re so stiff and not really open to someone new).
I live in Munich and it’s not crazy here at all. At least by American standards. While people call Munich a big village it does not come with the backwards political attitude of villages and people generally don’t openly advertise their political views. The state of Bavaria often likes to protrait itself as first among equals in politics which I think is where the reports of conservatism come from but it’s not a problem I think.
Ok the queer subject: there has been a specifically gay subculture in Munich for quite a while and I think there are quite some queer folks in the local chaos computer club chapter as well. The Christopher street day is also celebrated in Munich.
Munich is a beautiful city, I’m sure you will feel quite at home once you got past the (comparatively) frosty German attitude and made some friends :)
Edit: formatting
Honestly I’m fine with the frosty attitudes and being ingored compared to the super fake and passive aggressive bs from folks here in the US. Thanks for the insight
While traveling an American also admitted that it was refreshing to get a straight answer to their questions instead of the usual “bs and second guessing”. Seems like it must be hard to have a serious conversation in the states.
I’ve tried to write several responses defining how Americans talk to each other and it’s just so sad and hard to explain. “Small talk” is the phrase that comes to mind: obligatory, cliche, repeated statements with expected standard answers. It’s miserable
I’m from germany. We recently went out for drinks with a researcher and a few students from the US. What I noticed about their communication was that it seemed a lot more … well, practiced maybe? Like they were working in retail and they got stuck in their “customer service voice” :P . Also a bit more focus on showmanship. Didn’t feel like you could get a genuine or personal answer out of them.
From what I’ve seen and experienced in the US, poc and their communities tend to be more upfront and real with each other but thats very anecdotal from a non-poc perspective so take that as you will. White people, however, we are trained from birth how to participate in this “practiced” customer service speech. It is exactly as you describe and very deeply engrained
Queer German woc here. And in tech too ! :D Yes, I do find it conservative. I live in Berlin. For all the hate that non Berliners like to lay on Berlin, it’s an accepting vibrant place. And if you are vegan, you’ll be spoilt for dining options. Vietnamese is crazy good here. And, concerts, there are multiple shows for different genres practically everyday. And several of them at sort of low-key underground places with their own charm. Berlin has its pitfalls but I don’t underestimate the peace of not being stared at constantly for just living my life. Oh, and racism in rural areas: If you ain’t white, enjoy some extra stares even when grocery shopping. Living outside the ring zone will give you the relatively quiet life you want. Rent is not cheap though. Cheaper than Munich though. But the rental crisis here is no joke either. There are some fun hacker and maker spaces here in Berlin: xhain and cbase for example that could be interesting for you. One thing I do live about Munich: if you are a hiker / mountain climber, that place is excellent. So many mountains and trails are nearby !!
Would you be able to afford remote workcation kinda thing ? You can test out the cities and see how you vibe with it.
You hit on every topic I am considering, Berlin is sounding more in line with what I want. While I am not a poc I still have no interest in living around racists. It would be such a welcome change to be around more queer people, vegan options and a general sense of peace. I wouldn’t really consider leaving the US if it were not for the increasing sense of hostility around and the insane amount of anti-lgbtqia laws popping up. Workation is the next step I think, probably sometime around summer of 2024.
If I might ask, what is the acceptance of trans folks like within the queer scene in Berlin?
One City that doesn’t get mentioned much here is Tübingen(~70k) in the south. Its pretty much as liberal as Berlin, probably the most accepting city under 500k population in Germany. It is ridiculously beautiful with a huge old town, and as someone who is queer and spends time there often, it feels very safe. The queer community is huge because there is tons of students. It has amazing City Planning / Cycling Infrastructure / Public Transport, and the surrounding nature is beautiful as well.
Adding this place to the list then, thank you!
Disclaimer: I’m not trans myself. My experience/opinion is formed by listening to my trans friends and observing their experience.
Berlin is largely leftist with some anarcho spaces. Trans acceptance is mandated entry requirement. I’m sure some ahole wiggles in occasionally but I’ve seen others get very vocal and kick them out immediately. I would say it’s an accepting place with several social events geared towards the LGBTQ community. A friend of mine is from the US too and she came to Berlin because of the issues she faced in her home country as a (trans) woman. It’s been about a decade since she got here. I can find out about some forums, spaces you can talk / ask questions in. I don’t want to presume the details and speak for the trans community. Shall I look into it and pm you ?
If you find anything that would be greatly appreciated! Your response is encouraging nonetheless, the landscape is changing so rapidly here it is hard to know where is actually safe and welcoming to all the letters
That is 300% the stereotype of Berlin. But it’s true. If you like to be surrounded by leftist, queer, vegan people and waiters that speak english better than german: Berlin is your place.
Maybe look up where to live. You said you like a more rural place… Many many other people also like to live in the outskirts and surrounding areas of Berlin. But it’s a bit different from other rural areas. I think it’s called the “Speckgürtel”.
Also i’d like to mention the city of Cologne, which is known for being queer.
I don’t necessarily need to me immersed in it, but having community and good food nearby is a welcome change. Especially being able to take a train into the city. Here you would need to drive 45+ minutes by car just to find a single gay bar that might be kinda shitty anyway. US cities are similar in that they are more welcoming but frankly, by all other metrics, our cities suck
You will be totally fine in any of the bigger cities.
I’d probably recommend the south even.
The south is generally very save and the cities are quite left-leaning. On the countryside and in smaller towns and cities you do see shit like you mentioned, though. Your Biden are our Greens and Habeck or Baerbock in that case, but definitely the same shit. Not as blatantly and openly as in the US, though.
i am from the north…real north…born 200m off the coast…the “conservativism” of the south is insane to me. switzerland and austria are even worse. it is not really about being a conaervative but that it is their coping mechanism to function as facists in a democracy.
for example in Badenwürtenberg there is a green minister whose perspectives on working with nationalists or how to tackle climate change are trump-level dumb/conservative.
over the years i got to meet several new friends that for various reasons had to start their migration to german in bavaria…and ALL of them were shocked once they were free to enter the civilized parts of germany. one girl had to go to school in munich and after she was free never went to bavaria again because of the constant hate. like facists in the US feed off triggering libs, tze south loves giving the impression equality is just because they allow it.
…but south east is worse…so, maybe dont go there.
If you care to look outside the box of your known cities: Cologne (like Munich) for it’s openness regarding primarily gay folks. Since the increased popularity of LGBT+, the acceptance spreads to that forms to. Take this official city home page site as example.
As already said in another comment, the area near the Rhine (especially near Cologne and Düsseldorf) gets mute rural quickly
The others did a pretty great job commenting already but I want to add that Munich has many gay bars and quite a big Christopher Street Day (You might know it as a pride parade but in germany we like to make it half parade half demonstration in honor to the stonewall riots). I think the CSD is one of the biggest ones.
I’ve heard of a black person being turned away at a bar by bouncers in Austria (which has similar culture to Bavaria), which is anecdotal. Also anecdotally, when I was there myself in the less-urban parts of Bavaria, I didn’t see any non-white people.
It didn’t remind me much of rural USA or what you described it as (my recollection of that is a bit fainter and more dated than urban USA).
Edit: the person told me the bouncer said “we don’t serve your kind here.”
An anecdote of another country is pretty worthless in this discussion. While Bavaria and Austria are similar in many ways, racism is much more normalized in Austria, especially when comparing Vienna and Munich.
I’ve heard of a black person being turned away at a bar by bouncers in Austria
Tbf it’s more likely they didn’t like his shoes, not that he was black.
