I always wonder where the line is for the majority of people, maybe there isn’t one and they know it. You’ve got to hand it to Microsoft nearly 30 years and they still have the majority.
To most people, using a PC is like mopping a floor, or cleaning a car. It’s a boring - even unpleasant - task that you need to do every once in a while. They’d rather be on their phone or their iPad.
When you already view using your PC as a chore, and some Linux user says to you “hey, if you spend a day backing up all your files, creating an install USB, installing Linux, reinstalling your programs (and finding alternatives for those that aren’t available), logging back in to everything, moving your data back across, and relearning how to use a PC, it’ll be worth it in the long run!”, you will just ignore their advice. It’s easier just to say “nah, I only occasionally need my PC when I want to update my CV or write a long email anyway. Thanks for the suggestion though!”
They put up with an hour or two of MS’s bullshit every few months. They don’t like it, but they also don’t care enough about putting effort in so that in future, the chore of using a PC only feels half as bad. At the end of the day, either way, it’s still a chore, and they’d still rather be on their phone/tablet/doing something else entirely.
In the same way, they also don’t care enough about ultimately saving 10 mins every month when they clean their car to go out of their way and do the initial work of claybar-ing, polishing, then waxing it.
I use Linux. I like Linux. But I’m just another Lemmy nerd, not an average PC user.
Yes, small things could quickly put ordinary people off Linux with the current state of software. I’m involved in running an organization that needs to submit reports regularly to the government using their online forms. Unfortunately the forms are PDFs that only seem to work in recent versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader. Any other software results in a more or less broken form. I haven’t yet found anything in Linux (even on Wine) that handles these forms properly. So sometimes I have to use Windows.
For me there are still enough benefits to using Linux that I continue with it as my main OS, but for most people they’d quickly get annoyed by obstacles like this. Of course the government shouldn’t be using one company’s proprietary format that only runs on commercial OSes for their forms, but that’s the way it is for now.
Well, the PDF format was created by Adobe and even though they somehow got it to technically be considered an open document format. They are to my knowledge still the only entity with a complete implementation in existence. Just some food for thought.
You are correct, but on the other hand it doesn’t hurt to make the average person aware of alternatives.
Can be especially effective when the person buys a new PC and needs to do all the stuff you mention anyway. Yes, it is still a new OS, but honestly, it’s not that different - especially if the person remembers older Windows versions, it might just feel like going to familiar places (I know this is something my wife would really apreciate as she hates the constant changes of how things look). Obviously depends on distro, only have experience with Mint.
I’m saying this from a position of a resonably tech savvy, but not your average tech nerd (at least knowledge wise lol). Sure there are differences under hood but I don’t think the average user would really notice them that much.
There is no such thing as a line, it seems to be a long gradient and its about how fast you move on the gradient. If you ever so slightly introduce more and more crap slowly enough, people don’t care as they forget how good they had it much earlier.
I agree, I don’t think they have any limit. Look at how invasive platforms like Facebook are, and yet they’re still massively popular. Mobile operating systems are several times worse than Windows is for privacy and data harvesting, and people clearly don’t care at all. They’ll even happily consent to ever more levels of it - there’s no evidence to suggest that they’ll ever stop.
One of the biggest “mistakes” Microsoft made was not realizing how lucrative data collection could be. Back in the quaint old days of early PC computing, spyware was actually considered a bad thing. When Google came along, that philosophy was flipped on its head. Over the past 15 years, Microsoft has seeing what these spyware vendors are doing and salivating because they know that they are still the kings of computing - they still have total control the PC market and there’s a good chance that it’s not really going anywhere because most people hate change - even though Linux is starting to make inroads in quite a few places.
It would not be surprising if, in a few years, a Windows OS looks like a Google search page, or a cable television channel.
If you buy a PC it has Windows on it. The majority of people are not cocking about formatting a USB stick and fiddling with the BIOS to put Linux on it. They aren’t thinking about operating systems at all, and if you need specific software for work, chances are it isn’t going to run on anything other than Windows. If you don’t need it for work, you’ve probably just got a tablet by now and store all your photos on Facebook.
That comic really reminds me of trying to degoogle and FOSSify my computer as a complete novice. Multiple, extremely frustrating times, I’ve wanted to install something but I genuinely have not been able to understand the installation instructions. I also don’t know enough to know what the right search terms are to find out what I’m meant to do.
If you buy a PC it has Windows on it. The majority of people are not cocking about formatting a USB stick and fiddling with the BIOS to put Linux on it.
And increasingly the majority of people don’t even bother to keep a PC anymore and just use their phone
Exactly. We used to have a massive chain of shops called PC World, and that eventually became Currys/PC World, and is now just Currys.
The age of computers came and went, and people still need washing machines and TVs. They still sell laptops I think, but if you want anything from their range of “gaming” PCs, they have to order it in, usually from one of the many stores online that will build them for you.
Right in front of me is a guy editing a >10 page LaTeX file in Overleaf on a 13 inch laptop. The sidebar takes like 1/3rd of the screen. The editor in around 3 inches in width, and he needs to zoom into the PDF preview to read it.
My point in, some people simply don’t care about anything.
Yeah, I guess it means they know people don’t care, and they can do what they want. What are you going to do, use the scary CLI OS that’s for nerds. Or spend loads of money on a walled garden, no just stay in the cosy middle.
All my windows friends and family just don’t care, computers are a utility, and they won’t learn something as easy as Mint or Bazzite. To them, they still see Linux as it was in the 2000s.
There are whole businesses dedicated to MS, like everything they do is MS. You hire an IT firm, they’ll plonk a load of Dells in your offices and spin up Exchange 2019 where everything bespoke is programmed in C#, despite their being better products because it’s all they know. They spent all that money on MS partnerships.
Microsoft have created a stable ecosystem we didn’t learn in the late 90s or the mid 2000s and we will carry on because at this point it’s effort. Unless you’re Germany…
They don’t relly know better. Windows is familiar, Linux sounds too complicated and techy. Hell, I was thinking the same and I’m reasonably tech savvy. It’s infinitely more friendly than I’d ever expect.
People are afraid of change and unknown. Though ironically Linux might actually be closer to the original Windows experience that Win11 is (speaking from my limited experience with Mint)
This is the same false analogy people make as to why Americans drive giant trucks to shift blame… it’s not the manufacturers who are pushing these cars to circumvent taxes, it is the users for demanding it.
Very few people actually like these invasive shit Microsoft pulls, but the vast majority either do not know about them, understand them or feel they have another choice. For example, I hate MS, I understand what dog shit this Recall feature is, yet my job will provide a Windows machine with it and I have no choice but to use it.
I am a nerd so at home I do have everything running on Linux. But for the majority of people that would be a unknown option or just an unobtainable one
We drive giant trucks because the small ones are cheap pieces of shit, with inferior designs, inferior engines, and inferior driveline components, that aren’t rated to tow or haul anything.
I don’t give a shit about what work gives me saying all I’m doing is work on that thing. Now what I’m really afraid of is Microsoft pulling data from the sensors on the device when I’m working from home with it. I need too think of a way to deal with it (I do not have a separate room for work)
From my limited experience using it on a shitty Chromebook for school (granted also pretty locked down) and it’s not great. Pretty much only useful for doing web things and the Google ecosystem. I also have no idea whether it’s even possible to get it on anything else.
From a UI perspective I didn’t really like it l, especially as it and other chrome apps got more and more sleek and curvy. I did grow up using a Linux mint laptop though, only getting a dual booted Linux/Windows PC in highschool for some games that needed it as well as running SOLIDWORKS at home. (thanks to my dad for all that lol)
I always wonder where the line is for the majority of people, maybe there isn’t one and they know it. You’ve got to hand it to Microsoft nearly 30 years and they still have the majority.
This is the thing Lemmy nerds don’t understand:
For most people, using a PC is a chore.
To most people, using a PC is like mopping a floor, or cleaning a car. It’s a boring - even unpleasant - task that you need to do every once in a while. They’d rather be on their phone or their iPad.
When you already view using your PC as a chore, and some Linux user says to you “hey, if you spend a day backing up all your files, creating an install USB, installing Linux, reinstalling your programs (and finding alternatives for those that aren’t available), logging back in to everything, moving your data back across, and relearning how to use a PC, it’ll be worth it in the long run!”, you will just ignore their advice. It’s easier just to say “nah, I only occasionally need my PC when I want to update my CV or write a long email anyway. Thanks for the suggestion though!”
They put up with an hour or two of MS’s bullshit every few months. They don’t like it, but they also don’t care enough about putting effort in so that in future, the chore of using a PC only feels half as bad. At the end of the day, either way, it’s still a chore, and they’d still rather be on their phone/tablet/doing something else entirely.
In the same way, they also don’t care enough about ultimately saving 10 mins every month when they clean their car to go out of their way and do the initial work of claybar-ing, polishing, then waxing it.
I use Linux. I like Linux. But I’m just another Lemmy nerd, not an average PC user.
Yes, small things could quickly put ordinary people off Linux with the current state of software. I’m involved in running an organization that needs to submit reports regularly to the government using their online forms. Unfortunately the forms are PDFs that only seem to work in recent versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader. Any other software results in a more or less broken form. I haven’t yet found anything in Linux (even on Wine) that handles these forms properly. So sometimes I have to use Windows.
For me there are still enough benefits to using Linux that I continue with it as my main OS, but for most people they’d quickly get annoyed by obstacles like this. Of course the government shouldn’t be using one company’s proprietary format that only runs on commercial OSes for their forms, but that’s the way it is for now.
The gov and higher education should be forced to use open source software. I would absolutely support that.
Well, the PDF format was created by Adobe and even though they somehow got it to technically be considered an open document format. They are to my knowledge still the only entity with a complete implementation in existence. Just some food for thought.
You are correct, but on the other hand it doesn’t hurt to make the average person aware of alternatives.
Can be especially effective when the person buys a new PC and needs to do all the stuff you mention anyway. Yes, it is still a new OS, but honestly, it’s not that different - especially if the person remembers older Windows versions, it might just feel like going to familiar places (I know this is something my wife would really apreciate as she hates the constant changes of how things look). Obviously depends on distro, only have experience with Mint.
I’m saying this from a position of a resonably tech savvy, but not your average tech nerd (at least knowledge wise lol). Sure there are differences under hood but I don’t think the average user would really notice them that much.
There is no such thing as a line, it seems to be a long gradient and its about how fast you move on the gradient. If you ever so slightly introduce more and more crap slowly enough, people don’t care as they forget how good they had it much earlier.
Boiling the frog
Sometimes they boil the frog too quickly, in which case they turn down the heat, wait 3 months, then turn it back up again.
Imagine the backlash if they just went straight from Windows XP to W11. There would be so much whiplash.
Great way of putting it
I agree, I don’t think they have any limit. Look at how invasive platforms like Facebook are, and yet they’re still massively popular. Mobile operating systems are several times worse than Windows is for privacy and data harvesting, and people clearly don’t care at all. They’ll even happily consent to ever more levels of it - there’s no evidence to suggest that they’ll ever stop.
One of the biggest “mistakes” Microsoft made was not realizing how lucrative data collection could be. Back in the quaint old days of early PC computing, spyware was actually considered a bad thing. When Google came along, that philosophy was flipped on its head. Over the past 15 years, Microsoft has seeing what these spyware vendors are doing and salivating because they know that they are still the kings of computing - they still have total control the PC market and there’s a good chance that it’s not really going anywhere because most people hate change - even though Linux is starting to make inroads in quite a few places.
It would not be surprising if, in a few years, a Windows OS looks like a Google search page, or a cable television channel.
If you buy a PC it has Windows on it. The majority of people are not cocking about formatting a USB stick and fiddling with the BIOS to put Linux on it. They aren’t thinking about operating systems at all, and if you need specific software for work, chances are it isn’t going to run on anything other than Windows. If you don’t need it for work, you’ve probably just got a tablet by now and store all your photos on Facebook.
That comic really reminds me of trying to degoogle and FOSSify my computer as a complete novice. Multiple, extremely frustrating times, I’ve wanted to install something but I genuinely have not been able to understand the installation instructions. I also don’t know enough to know what the right search terms are to find out what I’m meant to do.
I’m still trying but it’s fucking demoralising.
And increasingly the majority of people don’t even bother to keep a PC anymore and just use their phone
Exactly. We used to have a massive chain of shops called PC World, and that eventually became Currys/PC World, and is now just Currys.
The age of computers came and went, and people still need washing machines and TVs. They still sell laptops I think, but if you want anything from their range of “gaming” PCs, they have to order it in, usually from one of the many stores online that will build them for you.
Windows already lost. It lost to Android.
It’s more likely those who are like that are going for ChromeOS.
Doesn’t it say more about the users than Microsoft? Seems to me that people who don’t care about computers will accept anything coming from big tech…
Right in front of me is a guy editing a >10 page LaTeX file in Overleaf on a 13 inch laptop. The sidebar takes like 1/3rd of the screen. The editor in around 3 inches in width, and he needs to zoom into the PDF preview to read it.
My point in, some people simply don’t care about anything.
Yeah, I guess it means they know people don’t care, and they can do what they want. What are you going to do, use the scary CLI OS that’s for nerds. Or spend loads of money on a walled garden, no just stay in the cosy middle.
All my windows friends and family just don’t care, computers are a utility, and they won’t learn something as easy as Mint or Bazzite. To them, they still see Linux as it was in the 2000s.
There are whole businesses dedicated to MS, like everything they do is MS. You hire an IT firm, they’ll plonk a load of Dells in your offices and spin up Exchange 2019 where everything bespoke is programmed in C#, despite their being better products because it’s all they know. They spent all that money on MS partnerships.
Microsoft have created a stable ecosystem we didn’t learn in the late 90s or the mid 2000s and we will carry on because at this point it’s effort. Unless you’re Germany…
They don’t relly know better. Windows is familiar, Linux sounds too complicated and techy. Hell, I was thinking the same and I’m reasonably tech savvy. It’s infinitely more friendly than I’d ever expect.
People are afraid of change and unknown. Though ironically Linux might actually be closer to the original Windows experience that Win11 is (speaking from my limited experience with Mint)
This is the same false analogy people make as to why Americans drive giant trucks to shift blame… it’s not the manufacturers who are pushing these cars to circumvent taxes, it is the users for demanding it.
Very few people actually like these invasive shit Microsoft pulls, but the vast majority either do not know about them, understand them or feel they have another choice. For example, I hate MS, I understand what dog shit this Recall feature is, yet my job will provide a Windows machine with it and I have no choice but to use it.
I am a nerd so at home I do have everything running on Linux. But for the majority of people that would be a unknown option or just an unobtainable one
We drive giant trucks because the small ones are cheap pieces of shit, with inferior designs, inferior engines, and inferior driveline components, that aren’t rated to tow or haul anything.
I don’t give a shit about what work gives me saying all I’m doing is work on that thing. Now what I’m really afraid of is Microsoft pulling data from the sensors on the device when I’m working from home with it. I need too think of a way to deal with it (I do not have a separate room for work)
It’s because Apple products are heinously expensive, and Linux is far more hassle than most people are willing to go to.
There’s also Chrome OS, I have no idea if it’s any good though.
From my limited experience using it on a shitty Chromebook for school (granted also pretty locked down) and it’s not great. Pretty much only useful for doing web things and the Google ecosystem. I also have no idea whether it’s even possible to get it on anything else.
From a UI perspective I didn’t really like it l, especially as it and other chrome apps got more and more sleek and curvy. I did grow up using a Linux mint laptop though, only getting a dual booted Linux/Windows PC in highschool for some games that needed it as well as running SOLIDWORKS at home. (thanks to my dad for all that lol)