Very interesting info about Alice Paul - thank you. I didn’t know anything about her.
I think you misunderstood the point I was making (or, apologies, I wasn’t clear). I wasn’t advocating terrorism. I was pointing out that the sufferagist movement was sometimes labelled as “terrorists” by the press not that they were actually terrorists. I was trying to draw comparisons between the way they were described and the way that (fairly moderate) environmentalists are labelled today. (Though I do think that the Irish republican movement has also made big gains and it’s likely we’ll see a united Ireland at some stage.)
I don’t think it was World War I that enabled social change in Western Europe (that’s a nice story told by the establishment to create the illusion that the upper and lower classes were all in it together). It was the fear of the spread of Bolshevism. We saw this repeated after 1945.
My personal view about political/societal change is that direct action eventually forces longer-term political change. Voting in a parliamentary election is little more than entertainment (and, of course, distraction).
But surely you recognise that voting in parliament is what seals the deal. That is where the real power is. This is why Tory donators have spent so much money on “advisory” groups like 55 Tuften St etc. I always say follow where the money is. The largest money in the world is chasing reforms through law not through intimidation, because that is the cheapest way to do it.
As for the suffragettes, they most certainly were terrorists. That is regardless of whether you saw them as right or wrong. They were ultimately trying to change opinion through fear and intimidation.
I agree there are a lot of comparisons between the suffragettes and the groups for climate change today. My point was that they were ineffective in getting that change until circumstances provided an opportunity. Even today the biggest drive for Net zero has come from the war in Ukraine. Prior to this Net zero activists have gained no ground.
Large amounts of cash is the driving force that is actively blocking the changes we desperately need. Most people in the world are blind to the corruption that is taking place. We need mechanisms in place so that we can educate the public on good/bad in a critical approach. We need empowerment for the whole nation of the UK not just those in the swing seat areas. FPTP is a very easy system to manipulate. It is because of this that we have a fascist government today. They may not have the power of some of the historical known Fascists, but the ideals for taking total control and subjugating dissent is very much there. They are openly using the tactics from Fascists of time gone by.
I very much agree with climate activism. I am arsey in how much effort I make sure my household does it part to be green. I just disagree with the actions they are taking. I see them as very short sighted and destructive. When you are attacked by clowns always go for the juggler. The juggler in the UK is Parliament. Climate activists should be fighting to change how Parliament works to be more effective. If we had a PR voting system, then everyone can have their say on what is important to the country. You shouldn’t need to protest; you should only be looking to re-educate to gain support not intimidate.
It was the fear of the spread of Bolshevism. We saw this repeated after 1945.
This is very much wrong on so many fronts. The triple entente was an association that led to alliance during WW1 between both “democratic” and communist regimes. WW2 also had Russia as an ally. We even banned animal farm being published because of it. There were suppressions going on against communism in the UK, which then reinforced the unionist movement. Most notably were in the Glasgow shipyards. There may have been a fear of these for the upper classes, but the lower class were empathetic to the cause. I would argue that the appeasements given to the lower classes that were gained in the 1920’s were partly down the legitimacy of the ideals that the communist pushed out. There really was an outcry for more empowerment across the board.
The unknown soldier we have in London now is a direct result of the fear the upper classes were feeling at that time. The grief of all nations who took part in the war was palpable. The upper class read the room and made adjustments because of it. The unknown soldier was the original version of South Park’s “I am really sorry” video.
But surely you recognise that voting in parliament is what seals the deal.
No, I don’t. I can’t see who the deal is between - because it’s not between the ruling class and the ruled (the social contract doesn’t exist). In the big scheme of things the money given to Tuften Street “think tanks”, lobby groups, straightforward corruption and ownership of the media is peanuts in comparison to maintaining the current property relations in UK (and most of the world). We’ve seen what happens when the ruling class feels threatened and can no longer maintain the façade of “democracy”. PR doesn’t alter things much abroad: it gives a different style of entertainment to keep people distracted.
I’m in favour of distributive ownership and distributed power. No one group should be in control. We know that - to save the planet - we need to do things like outlaw oil companies (and the rapid end of use of fossil fuels) and mega-cattle farming. No “parliament” (first past the post, PR or whatever) is going to do that anywhere in the world. It’s going to come down to a mix of terrible catastrophes which trigger direct action.
No, I don’t. I can’t see who the deal is between - because it’s not between the ruling class and the ruled (the social contract doesn’t exist). In the big scheme of things the money given to Tuften Street “think tanks”, lobby groups, straightforward corruption and ownership of the media is peanuts in comparison to maintaining the current property relations in UK (and most of the world). We’ve seen what happens when the ruling class feels threatened and can no longer maintain the façade of “democracy”. PR doesn’t alter things much abroad: it gives a different style of entertainment to keep people distracted.
This really is a million miles from being realistic about the way the world is ran these days. The money given in donation and corrupt boys network schemes is small. It is small compared to the return on the investment. These people have made billions from the scams of our government. Sunak himself was linked to the billions earned betting against the pound. That is money directly from our pocket. We will now have to spend billions buying those gilts back on maturity. The money being made on corruption in the UK is staggering. And it is being done for a song. The national audit offence asked Sunak to look into £55b in the fraud they found to be possible from treasury finances. He refused to look in that direction. This is something that is very prevalent throughout the Tory party.
I am not 100% sure that this is not just a trolling session anymore, so I will end my comments here.
I’m not sure you read what I’ve written anyhow. I tell you things like:
In the big scheme of things the money… is peanuts
And you then say:
The money given in donation and corrupt boys network schemes is small.
Which is more or less what I said. You did the same about terrorism.
I’m always interested in finding out how people invested in a broken system think that it can be improved or reformed (and willing to learn and change my mind which is the point of discussion). No worries, though.
Very interesting info about Alice Paul - thank you. I didn’t know anything about her.
I think you misunderstood the point I was making (or, apologies, I wasn’t clear). I wasn’t advocating terrorism. I was pointing out that the sufferagist movement was sometimes labelled as “terrorists” by the press not that they were actually terrorists. I was trying to draw comparisons between the way they were described and the way that (fairly moderate) environmentalists are labelled today. (Though I do think that the Irish republican movement has also made big gains and it’s likely we’ll see a united Ireland at some stage.)
I don’t think it was World War I that enabled social change in Western Europe (that’s a nice story told by the establishment to create the illusion that the upper and lower classes were all in it together). It was the fear of the spread of Bolshevism. We saw this repeated after 1945.
My personal view about political/societal change is that direct action eventually forces longer-term political change. Voting in a parliamentary election is little more than entertainment (and, of course, distraction).
But surely you recognise that voting in parliament is what seals the deal. That is where the real power is. This is why Tory donators have spent so much money on “advisory” groups like 55 Tuften St etc. I always say follow where the money is. The largest money in the world is chasing reforms through law not through intimidation, because that is the cheapest way to do it.
As for the suffragettes, they most certainly were terrorists. That is regardless of whether you saw them as right or wrong. They were ultimately trying to change opinion through fear and intimidation.
I agree there are a lot of comparisons between the suffragettes and the groups for climate change today. My point was that they were ineffective in getting that change until circumstances provided an opportunity. Even today the biggest drive for Net zero has come from the war in Ukraine. Prior to this Net zero activists have gained no ground.
Large amounts of cash is the driving force that is actively blocking the changes we desperately need. Most people in the world are blind to the corruption that is taking place. We need mechanisms in place so that we can educate the public on good/bad in a critical approach. We need empowerment for the whole nation of the UK not just those in the swing seat areas. FPTP is a very easy system to manipulate. It is because of this that we have a fascist government today. They may not have the power of some of the historical known Fascists, but the ideals for taking total control and subjugating dissent is very much there. They are openly using the tactics from Fascists of time gone by.
I very much agree with climate activism. I am arsey in how much effort I make sure my household does it part to be green. I just disagree with the actions they are taking. I see them as very short sighted and destructive. When you are attacked by clowns always go for the juggler. The juggler in the UK is Parliament. Climate activists should be fighting to change how Parliament works to be more effective. If we had a PR voting system, then everyone can have their say on what is important to the country. You shouldn’t need to protest; you should only be looking to re-educate to gain support not intimidate.
This is very much wrong on so many fronts. The triple entente was an association that led to alliance during WW1 between both “democratic” and communist regimes. WW2 also had Russia as an ally. We even banned animal farm being published because of it. There were suppressions going on against communism in the UK, which then reinforced the unionist movement. Most notably were in the Glasgow shipyards. There may have been a fear of these for the upper classes, but the lower class were empathetic to the cause. I would argue that the appeasements given to the lower classes that were gained in the 1920’s were partly down the legitimacy of the ideals that the communist pushed out. There really was an outcry for more empowerment across the board.
The unknown soldier we have in London now is a direct result of the fear the upper classes were feeling at that time. The grief of all nations who took part in the war was palpable. The upper class read the room and made adjustments because of it. The unknown soldier was the original version of South Park’s “I am really sorry” video.
No, I don’t. I can’t see who the deal is between - because it’s not between the ruling class and the ruled (the social contract doesn’t exist). In the big scheme of things the money given to Tuften Street “think tanks”, lobby groups, straightforward corruption and ownership of the media is peanuts in comparison to maintaining the current property relations in UK (and most of the world). We’ve seen what happens when the ruling class feels threatened and can no longer maintain the façade of “democracy”. PR doesn’t alter things much abroad: it gives a different style of entertainment to keep people distracted.
I’m in favour of distributive ownership and distributed power. No one group should be in control. We know that - to save the planet - we need to do things like outlaw oil companies (and the rapid end of use of fossil fuels) and mega-cattle farming. No “parliament” (first past the post, PR or whatever) is going to do that anywhere in the world. It’s going to come down to a mix of terrible catastrophes which trigger direct action.
This really is a million miles from being realistic about the way the world is ran these days. The money given in donation and corrupt boys network schemes is small. It is small compared to the return on the investment. These people have made billions from the scams of our government. Sunak himself was linked to the billions earned betting against the pound. That is money directly from our pocket. We will now have to spend billions buying those gilts back on maturity. The money being made on corruption in the UK is staggering. And it is being done for a song. The national audit offence asked Sunak to look into £55b in the fraud they found to be possible from treasury finances. He refused to look in that direction. This is something that is very prevalent throughout the Tory party.
I am not 100% sure that this is not just a trolling session anymore, so I will end my comments here.
No, just a discussion.
I’m not sure you read what I’ve written anyhow. I tell you things like:
And you then say:
Which is more or less what I said. You did the same about terrorism.
I’m always interested in finding out how people invested in a broken system think that it can be improved or reformed (and willing to learn and change my mind which is the point of discussion). No worries, though.