Biden shares many of my values and goals, but because he isn’t perfectly aligned with my values and goals, I’m voting Trump, a man that shares NONE of my values and goals, as a protest. What could go wrong?
Democracy works by criticizing your elected officials until they make necessary changes. People NEED to be putting Biden’s feet to the fire to end the genocide in Palestine. Just because Trump would be worse doesn’t make what Biden is doing ok. Criticism of one isn’t an endorsement of the other. And Biden NEEDS the votes of everyone criticizing his response to the genocide. Instead of harassing people trying to end genocide, you should be asking why Biden supports genocide more than the young voters who he needs to win in November.
The meme implies protest at the polls. Their comment is reflective of that sentiment. Criticize and protest US support of Israel independent of casting your vote in rebellion. The point stands that Trump encourages eradication of the Palestinians and Ukrainians, while oppressing working class Americans and repealing climate change progress.
You’re going to get one whether you like it or not. Do you want the nicer geriatric or the one who wants to burn shit down? Because if we don’t try to stop it, this will be 2016 all over again.
I hope you choose to vote, or are at least ok with letting the fascist take over because of inaction. “I’m NoT vOtInG fOr GeNoCiDe” is a stupid argument when not voting is more likely to elect the full throated genocider.
I really don’t see how some people can sleep at night with their choices…
It starts to get quite boring, is that all you people have? He’s old yeah, both are, but Biden won’t run the country all by himself you know. About the genocide, he sure could have tried to do more, but how in hell is that his fault? I mean are all politicians worldwide genociders because they didn’t stop the horrors in Gasa?
Biden does not share my view that genocide is bad. If you want to vote for genocide guy because orange man bad, you are devoid of morals. You are a spineless worm, deserving only scorn and derision.
Obviously Trump won’t be any better than Biden, but if Biden wants people to vote for him rather than sit home and vote for nobody, he should consider not doing genocide. You know, an elected politician trying to represent their voters? The thing democracies are nominally for?
You’re the one arguing in favor of continuing to bail water out of a sinking ship like Dems have exploitatively argued for decades. This is your status quo, this is what lesser evils of the past have won you.
Disowning the present circumstances requires disowning every single application of your horseshit political perspective for about 50 years. Under neoliberalism, there have only been two Dem strategies: Republican-lite (e.g. Clinton), or lie about not being Republican-lite (e.g. Obama), and you’ve won about half the time and gotten us your “lesser evil” administrations, “crisis” after “crisis”, and all those “lesser evils” have accomplished nothing but serving up new situations to keep choosing between Republican and Republican-lite.
If you want anything other than a farcical good cop/bad cop routine carried on until the country implodes, your strategy has thoroughly failed, repeatedly, for decades.
You have two options: live in madness and keep trying the same thing over and over again in denial of it having the same result, or accept that the “moderate” path is opposed to you ever getting an improvement, instead of the first step towards it.
This is your status quo, this is what lesser evils of the past have won you.
Thank you, this bears repeating. Voting for the lesser evil has consequences. These are them. The consequences are here. Blaming those of us who won’t vote for genocide is like blaming the people who don’t give a homeless beggar $20. Sure, that money could help the guy get a meal today, but he’s in that situation due to decades of neoliberal policy. It’s ridiculous to heap the culpability for all of that on the skinflint today.
If you want anything other than a farcical good cop/bad cop routine carried on until the country implodes, your strategy has thoroughly failed, repeatedly, for decades.
The historical pattern is that pendulum swings and the party in the White House changes after each President. So, there’s a good chance of that implosion coming in 2028.
Trump derangement syndrome really is real if you think there exists a worse possibility than the maximalist position already held by the biggest zionist politician America has had in the last 70 years. You think ‘orange man’ is going to be worse just because ‘orange man bad’?
Yeah, I mean, Trump has never been dishonest in how shitty he is. But sure, “genocide Joe,” go off.
The situation sucks. Truly epitome of “lesser of evils” conundrums. Both suck regarding the quagmire in Gaza, but Trump will suck much harder with this conflict and every other metric that matters. He’s not even quiet about it! Unapologetically blatantly terrible! Bigoted buffoonery of the highest caliber!
No one is having a good time here! It’s like picking which arm to saw off!
It’s a really lazy reduction, too. Biden doesn’t spend his days just looking for ways to support genocide. Even if Trump and Biden are “essentially the same” with regard to genocide (they’re not), you can treat that as a logically moot issue. Therefore, you have to look at their other points, and in no way is Trump a better option than Biden in that regard, unless you’re personally getting kickbacks from the Trump grift mill.
There’s what Biden is actually doing vs what people think Trump will do. You think Trump will worsen the genocide - but what does that mean, materially? Biden is already sending Israel all the weapons they want and giving them all the air cover they need politically. What more could Trump do?
Send troops. Enact a draft to that end to “make the libz cry.” Send more weapons.
But you’re agreeing with my point. If Trump and Biden are essentially the same on this issue, you have to compare the other things about them, and they are not even close to the same on other issues (LGBTQ rights, unions, women’s rights, taxes for the rich, etc.). If “supports genocide” is the single issue for you, then you live an immensely privileged life that you don’t have to worry about other aspects of governance.
And no matter what you think, thanks to FPTP, those are your two options, because you can’t build the momentum needed to upset the upcoming election; you’re years too late. Abstention is a vote for the person you like less, so you are left with voting for Biden or Trump, whether you like it or not.
Oh sure let’s talk about LGBTQ rights and Women’s rights shall we. Under which president was Roe v. Wade struck down? Under which president have abortion bans in many states popped up with complete inaction from the federal government? Under which president have anti-trans laws popped up with complete inaction from the federal government?
My expectations of Trump is we will have a buffoonish worsening of the current conditions of the world. Under Biden we will have a cynical worsening of current conditions. Am I priveleged? Yes, I live in the imperial core. I live in a blue state. I have a stable job. But don’t think for a second that I can’t see what’s happening around me.
Under which president was Roe v. Wade struck down?
This one.
And who put the Federalist Society justices in place who struck it down? Oh, that’s right. Donald fucking Trump.
Under which president have abortion bans in many states popped up with complete inaction from the federal government? Under which president have anti-trans laws popped up with complete inaction from the federal government?
This one.
What powers do you think they have? Laws are struck down by the judiciary, which we’ve already established has been captured, thanks to Trump.
Here’s a question for you: who has been enacting those laws? What is the nature of the legislature in those cases?
None of your gripes here are Biden’s fault, unless you’re wishing he’d be more authoritarian (fuck that). Trump is 100% to blame for the current state of the law, and helping him get reelected isn’t going to help LGBTQ people or women’s rights.
And who put the Federalist Society justices in place who struck it down? Oh, that’s right. Donald fucking Trump.
Joe Biden had more to do with Clarence Thomas being on the court than any republican
And what did Biden do in response to Roe being struck down? Oh, that’s right. He made statements about how he’s against abortion.
What powers do you think they have?
Executive power, dummy. The actual power to do what he wants to do with federal resources. The court only has the power to talk about what he does after the fact.
unless you’re wishing he’d be more authoritarian (fuck that)
LMAO WELL THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP IF YOU DON’T WANT YOUR POLITICIANS TO EXERCISE AUTHORITY DIPSHIT
Why are you pretending to give a shit about politics in the first place??
Trump is not to blame for the state of the law. The Democrats have had many chances over the years to protect the rights that the Republicans have said out loud, for decades, that they will remove. Time and time again they did not prioritize it. Biden was a senator and then vice president and then president during these opportunities.
None of your gripes here are Biden’s fault
Yes they are absolutely his fault. He has been deeply involved in the highest levels of government for decades.
unless you’re wishing he’d be more authoritarian (fuck that).
You don’t think throwing teenage girls in prison for getting an abortion after being raped is authortarian? How privileged to be able to say that freedoms should be fought for based on your personal opinion of the right way of doing it.
and they are not even close to the same on other issues (LGBTQ rights, unions, women’s rights, taxes for the rich, etc.).
Yes they are
If “supports genocide” is the single issue for you, then you live an immensely privileged life
Square peg argument in a round hole of reality. Literally just copy and pasting into a thought terminating cliche what was absurd and ghoulish when you used it for healthcare.
Send troops. Enact a draft to that end to “make the libz cry.”
You are really out of touch. Trump loves imperial domineering, but he generally prefers to avoid boots on the ground because they represent a liability to his image. He will not send volunteers and he knows as well as anyone that it’d be suicide to enact a draft.
Biden literally did that. He personally went around reporting requirements so that he could send Isreal a greater variety of weapons for their genocide without congressional oversight.
Even if Trump and Biden are “essentially the same” with regard to genocide, you can treat that as a logically moot issue.
This is where we disagree. I can not use moral relativism when a party engages in genocide. Further, i don’t agree that voting for Biden is, as many pro Biden folk argue, a repudiation of Trump.
A vote for Biden (or any representative for that matter), to me, is an implicit acknowlegement i agree with his leadership. An approval and statement that he represents my beliefs and shares, a little, my values.
There is no such thing, in my mind, as negative voting (voting against a candidate). This is not how it works, not how i willnotbe coerced into thinking it works.
A vote for a representative is a positive action. I will not play a game of “what if the boogeyman tho!?” with a party shown time and again to be against my best interest, to ignore my very life in favor of the pocketbooks of donors…
Now, they ask me to help them stop the boogeyman as they simultaneously stand aside while he strips my right to protest, my right to privacy, rip families apart, refuse my brothers and sisters right to live, and kill tens of thousands.
Voting as you imagine it is nothing but reductive. Worse, venal. Finally, to consider genocide as “logically moot” is not logical. It’s fucking gross, and i feel absolutely sorry for you that you’ve come to this conclusion.
I can only hope you put more thought into this immediately
It’s only logically moot specifically because there’s only two options. Refusal to participate doesn’t change the fact that it will either be Biden or it will be Trump in the Oval Office next year. Choosing a third party will also not change that fact.
When functionally presented with two options, you have to compare them. Any similarities (which I don’t agree with the premise that they’re the same, but just for the sake of argument) are thus rendered moot. It’s not moot in the larger sense of human suffering, but when it comes to LGBTQ rights, women’s rights, etc., Trump is the last person to support those issues. Biden is the only way forward if that’s something you care about.
I can only hope you put more thought into this immediately
How you decide to frame the issue isn’t the same for me. I don’t share your, forgive me, extreme views of what is happening in the government or society. If voting is only a positive act for you, then it sounds like you’ve made up your mind. I choose to vote based on other factors, and just like my “chess” falls upon deaf ears with you, so do your impassioned pleas fall upon deaf ears with me.
So there will be no immediate anything. You hope in vain.
It’s only logically moot specifically because there’s only two options.
This is also not true, which is why i said your idea of what voting itself is reductive. There are of course more than two options this and every election.
Allowing your mind to bend to their narrative, believing that voting is a binary choice is one way their democracy-destroying little game works.
If voting were only two choices, i wouldn’t vote at all as you seem to suspect. but it isn’t. i will in fact be participating as i have done for 30 years. Just not gonna do it the way you’d like, an imaginary binary election.
Before you say it, there is also no such thing as throwing a vote away.
It’s only logically moot specifically because there’s only two options. Refusal to participate doesn’t change the fact that it will either be Biden or it will be Trump in the Oval Office next year. Choosing a third party will also not change that fact.
This is simplistic. There are only two outcomes to the upcoming election, but there are countless political strategies, many of which do not treat 2024’s presidential election as a totalizing issue. Other people, for example, think that what matters is building a strong leftist opposition so that we can escape the cycle of Republican vs Republican-lite elections, accepting that it means not giving unconditional support to so-called “moderates” for whom genocide is moot. Your logic only makes sense because you are question-begging by framing the question like the future doesn’t exist beyond the next four years.
until and unless we collectively withhold our votes and so express real and actual power, the left will always remain powerless. repudiate the democrats or be forever doomed to an endless cycle of voting for the “lesser” evil. (no moral calculus can ever frame a genocidier as the lesser evil - he’s so far beyond the moral event horizon that I no longer care to calculate)
The whole point is saying I’d rather not get shot at all and I’m not going to give any approval to get shot anywhere. Especially when the question is actually closer to where would I like to shoot some random civilian. I’m not going to give approval to shoot them in the foot nor the face.
And you get to order someone shot in the foot (but let’s be real, they’re going to end up shot in the face regardless face) so congrats on giving the order too I guess
Look, dude, I’d absolutely love for the situation to be better than it is, but the fact of the matter is, it’s not. These are our choices. You can pick bad or worse, and if you don’t pick, it’s going to be worse. You can dream about better options all you want, and if they were available I’d absolutely go for them, but refusing to avoid making the situation worse because you want it to be better is idealistic at best and actively harmful at worst. I’m glad you can feel good about yourself letting the worst come to pass, but some of us are actually trying to do damage control, and that defeatist attitude isn’t helping. That’s my stance, and I’ve spent enough time expounding on it. You can take it or leave it, either way I’m done.
okay so I read the whole thing. it describes a really shitty, extant system. it defines the spoiler effect. it shows how the spoiler effect makes the already shitty system even more shitty. all that’s fine and well. never once does it say that voting for minor party candidates is literally a vote for republicans, which was the actual statement that I took issue with.
you’re welcome to make the argument that the result is the same and that’s why you specifically will only vote strategically. that’s fine. it does absolutely nothing to compel me to vote for either democrats or for republicans. or even to vote at all for that matter. why participate in such a fundamentally broken system at all then? just to give one more point to 99% hitler? no thank you.
it’s not a strategic vote! it’s an abdication of strategy that pretends only the current election matters! it assumes the present is eternal and that no electoral strategy could ever consider the future. an electoral strategy would admit the left has no real power absent a dedicated bloc and would work on creating one. to do so, you must be willing to sacrifice a few elections, because you must withhold votes and force the democrats to the bargaining table. otherwise you will forever be trapped in a cycle of voting for the “lesser” evil. FPTP does not preclude a long-term electoral strategy.
why participate in such a fundamentally broken system at all then?
Because I have no choice. “The System” happens to me whether I like it or not; the laws happen to me whether I like it or not, and if I can have 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler, I’ll take the lesser. My refusal to participate doesn’t change the fact that those are my two options, and one will be chosen.
I would rather have a voice than let someone else choose for me.
So you’re just incredibly naive or incredibly selfish to not care about the results of what you do as long as you can pretend to be principled about it.
I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anything as incorrect in electoral strategy as voting for “99% Hitler”. elections come every 4 years. a loss today need not remain a loss forever. make the dems come to you! force them to bargain with the left instead of the right!
What values and goals could anyone possibly share with Biden? You’re pro-modern Jim Crow? Pro-imperial hegemony? Pro-genocide? Pro-banks keeping peoole un debt forever? That’s all he’s ever stood for
What values and goals does Biden share with Leftists, other than not being as far-right as the Republicans?
Who said anything about voting for Trump? I myself am voting Biden most likely because he isn’t as bad as Trump, but I share practically nothing with his views.
What person is criticizing Biden from the left but actually voting for Trump, other than the strawman you created?
Supporting of unions is a pretty big thing biden supports that leftists also support, nevermind his views and actions on climate change and bodily autonomy.
Your comment is wildly reductionist and supremely ignorant.
Biden has given concessions to Unions, that does not make him pro-Union. He has fallen excessively short on Climate goals and has done little to expand abortion protections.
Being less right wing for a liberal does not make Biden a Leftist, it just makes him less of a bad thing.
Your comment is wildly reductionist and supremely ignorant.
Biden tossed scraps, yes. He has not proposed radical changes to the anti-union policies that exist everywhere, he has not supported strikes, and he has not expanded protections to Unions. Believe it or not, a Pro-Union candidate can do these things! Biden isn’t actually pro-union, he just tosses scraps when strikes happen.
Yes, I do read what I am typing. I want a Pro-Union candidate, not a neutral one, so I will criticize Biden.
I believe Biden can quit playing softball with regards to abortion. Biden is the king of virtue signaling, he isn’t a king but he does have power.
Moreover, Biden is a Capitalist going far out of his way to support ongoing genocide. I am not going to be happy with his Capitalism, and I certainly won’t be happy with his genocide.
Im not sure it’s possible to be more pro-union than being literally the only president in united states history to ever step foot onto a picket line and protest.
He is doing what he is legally able to do for abortions and unions. The president is not a lawmaker, nor a king like you would seem to have him be.
Again, its not his fault you seem to be ignorant of the structure of the US government.
I literally gave you examples of how a President could be more Pro-Union: by presenting and helping pass actual Pro-Union legislation that protects worker’s rights to strike and form unions. Another good one would be mandating that all companies be unionized, or companies of a certain size must have union representatives participate in Board meetings.
Virtue signaling does nothing materially, it’s an optics thing.
He isn’t doing what he can do, lmao.
I am not ignorant of the structure of the US government just because you believe the job of the US president is to shout slogans and steer the country off vibes, lmao
Which legislation that republicans have allowed to hit floor should biden support?
Its also certifiably nuts you think a president should unilaterally demand all companies be unionized - like the king you would have him be. The destruction that would be wrought is unimaginable.
So supportive of unions, thats why he adopted Ronald Reagans policy of making it illegal to strike . All hail the Union loving strike breaker. Couldnt even get em sick days give me a break.
He made sure to remove agency from the workers in the process
The end result may have been favorable, but it seems wack to use this an example of Biden supporting unions. Seems more like he disenfranchised them instead
The union strikes and saber rattling achieved their own results. The workers had the power since they scared the establishment to give them what they wanted. However Biden took all the credit for it even though he crushed their union rights which just goes to show how irrevocably damaged the liberal brain is
Either way, it’s an example of Biden placing himself above workers. I was misled by all the liberals posting about how great Biden was for giving the workers what they want.
I mean, if you’re going to pretend this is the first election of all time and the last election ever, sure. or you could take history into account and make a longer term plan so that you don’t have to keep making choices about who the “lesser evil” is. if you abdicate any possible collective power, the ratchet will keep turning the dial further and further towards fascism.
He’s in charge of the weapon hose and has been cranking that shit further open for 7 months when he could have shut it off with a single phone call.
Or shit, here’s a rogue world leader doing a genocide. Isn’t that the kind of thing the US is supposed to extrajudicially coup and kill people for in the name of democracy? Nope, all of the sudden the world empire is helpless to stop a tiny fake country that literally depends on it to exist.
He passed the IRA, rejoined the Paris Agreement, repealed the transgender ban in the military, restored net neutrality, defended the use of mifepristone, supported Ukraine, and relieved some student debt. That’s enough to earn my vote.
Its that shitty Ben shapiro meme. “You hate the system yet you participate in it, curious?”
Yeah not really many options when you’ve gotta put food on the table. The change comes from the top down
down
down
Esit: I may or may not be misreading your comment.
The top doesn’t have as many options as people think.
Ben Shapiro is dumb and I don’t fault anyone who can’t bring about a worker’s paradise, provided they make an incremental improvement in the lives of others. That includes Biden.
After taking millions of tiny steps forward, we’ll eventually get to where we need to be.
It’s not selfish. People are SUFFERING and DYING. The people who are selfish are the ones who don’t want to give up the privilege and luxury they have that is only made possible by the suffering and exploitation of others these reforms would help the most.
I think the biggest LOL in history is Main Characters who think they can immediately solve the world’s problems. They literally have a 0% success rate.
All of our actual progress has always been incremental.
same. Biden has never stood for anything but the worst possible things atcany point in time. Pro segregation, pro imperialism, extreme zionist, architect of the modern Jim Crow, major facilitator of the Iraq War, bagman for the banking industry. And the extreme sexism with which he treated Anita Hill is just icing on the cake for what a shitbag Biden has always been. I can’t imagine thinking “he shares some of my values and goals.” He’s literally one of the worst, and certainly one of the individuals most responsible for how bad the world is
(as much as an individual can be responsible obviously another ghoul would have done the same things etc.)
Biden shares many of my values and goals, but because he isn’t perfectly aligned with my values and goals, I’m voting Trump, a man that shares NONE of my values and goals, as a protest. What could go wrong?
Democracy works by criticizing your elected officials until they make necessary changes. People NEED to be putting Biden’s feet to the fire to end the genocide in Palestine. Just because Trump would be worse doesn’t make what Biden is doing ok. Criticism of one isn’t an endorsement of the other. And Biden NEEDS the votes of everyone criticizing his response to the genocide. Instead of harassing people trying to end genocide, you should be asking why Biden supports genocide more than the young voters who he needs to win in November.
The meme implies protest at the polls. Their comment is reflective of that sentiment. Criticize and protest US support of Israel independent of casting your vote in rebellion. The point stands that Trump encourages eradication of the Palestinians and Ukrainians, while oppressing working class Americans and repealing climate change progress.
I’m not voting for genocidal geriatrics either way sorry
You know that just means you’re picking the worst of the two, right?
That’s what he really wants he just doesn’t want to say it out loud
Trump is only 4 years younger than Biden. They could’ve gone to high school together. Lol
I think they were calling them both genocidal geriatrics.
You’re going to get one whether you like it or not. Do you want the nicer geriatric or the one who wants to burn shit down? Because if we don’t try to stop it, this will be 2016 all over again.
I hope you choose to vote, or are at least ok with letting the fascist take over because of inaction. “I’m NoT vOtInG fOr GeNoCiDe” is a stupid argument when not voting is more likely to elect the full throated genocider.
I really don’t see how some people can sleep at night with their choices…
If you can’t vote for no genocide, then you are in a sham democracy.
It starts to get quite boring, is that all you people have? He’s old yeah, both are, but Biden won’t run the country all by himself you know. About the genocide, he sure could have tried to do more, but how in hell is that his fault? I mean are all politicians worldwide genociders because they didn’t stop the horrors in Gasa?
Grow up.
He’s a fucking dixiecrat
I didn’t know one of your values and goals was the extermination of Palestinians.
Biden does not share my view that genocide is bad. If you want to vote for genocide guy because orange man bad, you are devoid of morals. You are a spineless worm, deserving only scorn and derision.
You somehow think “orange man” would be less into genocide? Genuinely? How???
Obviously Trump won’t be any better than Biden, but if Biden wants people to vote for him rather than sit home and vote for nobody, he should consider not doing genocide. You know, an elected politician trying to represent their voters? The thing democracies are nominally for?
The choices as they stand right now are:
This sucks.
Oh, I fully acknowledge this sucks. Juuust as frustrated as anybody, friend.
You’re the one arguing in favor of continuing to bail water out of a sinking ship like Dems have exploitatively argued for decades. This is your status quo, this is what lesser evils of the past have won you.
Disowning the present circumstances requires disowning every single application of your horseshit political perspective for about 50 years. Under neoliberalism, there have only been two Dem strategies: Republican-lite (e.g. Clinton), or lie about not being Republican-lite (e.g. Obama), and you’ve won about half the time and gotten us your “lesser evil” administrations, “crisis” after “crisis”, and all those “lesser evils” have accomplished nothing but serving up new situations to keep choosing between Republican and Republican-lite.
If you want anything other than a farcical good cop/bad cop routine carried on until the country implodes, your strategy has thoroughly failed, repeatedly, for decades.
You have two options: live in madness and keep trying the same thing over and over again in denial of it having the same result, or accept that the “moderate” path is opposed to you ever getting an improvement, instead of the first step towards it.
Thank you, this bears repeating. Voting for the lesser evil has consequences. These are them. The consequences are here. Blaming those of us who won’t vote for genocide is like blaming the people who don’t give a homeless beggar $20. Sure, that money could help the guy get a meal today, but he’s in that situation due to decades of neoliberal policy. It’s ridiculous to heap the culpability for all of that on the skinflint today.
The historical pattern is that pendulum swings and the party in the White House changes after each President. So, there’s a good chance of that implosion coming in 2028.
Quick correction:
Edit: nice kneejerk downvote. Should’ve known not to get actual discourse from a hexbear accountFTFY
2 and 3 are the same
Yeah it’s never worth engaging, they won’t ever argue in good faith. They’re paid to spread propaganda.
Hexbears don’t have the ability to downvote, those are from other lemmy instances.
Really? Huh, TIL. I just assumed it was the person I responded to since it came soon after I posted, but I guess that was presumptuous of me.
Trump derangement syndrome really is real if you think there exists a worse possibility than the maximalist position already held by the biggest zionist politician America has had in the last 70 years. You think ‘orange man’ is going to be worse just because ‘orange man bad’?
This is laughably naive
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
Yeah, I mean, Trump has never been dishonest in how shitty he is. But sure, “genocide Joe,” go off.
The situation sucks. Truly epitome of “lesser of evils” conundrums. Both suck regarding the quagmire in Gaza, but Trump will suck much harder with this conflict and every other metric that matters. He’s not even quiet about it! Unapologetically blatantly terrible! Bigoted buffoonery of the highest caliber!
No one is having a good time here! It’s like picking which arm to saw off!
Genocide is a deal breaker. Unless democrats create an arms embargo on Israel, zero chance I vote for them
deleted by creator
It’s a really lazy reduction, too. Biden doesn’t spend his days just looking for ways to support genocide. Even if Trump and Biden are “essentially the same” with regard to genocide (they’re not), you can treat that as a logically moot issue. Therefore, you have to look at their other points, and in no way is Trump a better option than Biden in that regard, unless you’re personally getting kickbacks from the Trump grift mill.
There’s what Biden is actually doing vs what people think Trump will do. You think Trump will worsen the genocide - but what does that mean, materially? Biden is already sending Israel all the weapons they want and giving them all the air cover they need politically. What more could Trump do?
Send troops. Enact a draft to that end to “make the libz cry.” Send more weapons.
But you’re agreeing with my point. If Trump and Biden are essentially the same on this issue, you have to compare the other things about them, and they are not even close to the same on other issues (LGBTQ rights, unions, women’s rights, taxes for the rich, etc.). If “supports genocide” is the single issue for you, then you live an immensely privileged life that you don’t have to worry about other aspects of governance.
And no matter what you think, thanks to FPTP, those are your two options, because you can’t build the momentum needed to upset the upcoming election; you’re years too late. Abstention is a vote for the person you like less, so you are left with voting for Biden or Trump, whether you like it or not.
Voting is not a valentine, it’s a chess move.
Oh sure let’s talk about LGBTQ rights and Women’s rights shall we. Under which president was Roe v. Wade struck down? Under which president have abortion bans in many states popped up with complete inaction from the federal government? Under which president have anti-trans laws popped up with complete inaction from the federal government?
My expectations of Trump is we will have a buffoonish worsening of the current conditions of the world. Under Biden we will have a cynical worsening of current conditions. Am I priveleged? Yes, I live in the imperial core. I live in a blue state. I have a stable job. But don’t think for a second that I can’t see what’s happening around me.
This one.
And who put the Federalist Society justices in place who struck it down? Oh, that’s right. Donald fucking Trump.
This one.
What powers do you think they have? Laws are struck down by the judiciary, which we’ve already established has been captured, thanks to Trump.
Here’s a question for you: who has been enacting those laws? What is the nature of the legislature in those cases?
None of your gripes here are Biden’s fault, unless you’re wishing he’d be more authoritarian (fuck that). Trump is 100% to blame for the current state of the law, and helping him get reelected isn’t going to help LGBTQ people or women’s rights.
Joe Biden had more to do with Clarence Thomas being on the court than any republican
And what did Biden do in response to Roe being struck down? Oh, that’s right. He made statements about how he’s against abortion.
Executive power, dummy. The actual power to do what he wants to do with federal resources. The court only has the power to talk about what he does after the fact.
LMAO WELL THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP IF YOU DON’T WANT YOUR POLITICIANS TO EXERCISE AUTHORITY DIPSHIT
Why are you pretending to give a shit about politics in the first place??
Trump is not to blame for the state of the law. The Democrats have had many chances over the years to protect the rights that the Republicans have said out loud, for decades, that they will remove. Time and time again they did not prioritize it. Biden was a senator and then vice president and then president during these opportunities.
Yes they are absolutely his fault. He has been deeply involved in the highest levels of government for decades.
You don’t think throwing teenage girls in prison for getting an abortion after being raped is authortarian? How privileged to be able to say that freedoms should be fought for based on your personal opinion of the right way of doing it.
Your ideology calls it authoritarian to not give free-reign to unelected judges with lifetime appointments. You’re a joke.
Yes they are
Square peg argument in a round hole of reality. Literally just copy and pasting into a thought terminating cliche what was absurd and ghoulish when you used it for healthcare.
Prove it
Who is president now and what has happened with those issues?
“prove it” How about about you go look up what a null hypothesis is, brain warrior?
abstention is, quite literally, not a vote for the person you like less.
You are really out of touch. Trump loves imperial domineering, but he generally prefers to avoid boots on the ground because they represent a liability to his image. He will not send volunteers and he knows as well as anyone that it’d be suicide to enact a draft.
Biden does this.
Biden literally did that. He personally went around reporting requirements so that he could send Isreal a greater variety of weapons for their genocide without congressional oversight.
This is where we disagree. I can not use moral relativism when a party engages in genocide. Further, i don’t agree that voting for Biden is, as many pro Biden folk argue, a repudiation of Trump.
A vote for Biden (or any representative for that matter), to me, is an implicit acknowlegement i agree with his leadership. An approval and statement that he represents my beliefs and shares, a little, my values.
There is no such thing, in my mind, as negative voting (voting against a candidate). This is not how it works, not how i will not be coerced into thinking it works.
A vote for a representative is a positive action. I will not play a game of “what if the boogeyman tho!?” with a party shown time and again to be against my best interest, to ignore my very life in favor of the pocketbooks of donors…
Now, they ask me to help them stop the boogeyman as they simultaneously stand aside while he strips my right to protest, my right to privacy, rip families apart, refuse my brothers and sisters right to live, and kill tens of thousands.
Voting as you imagine it is nothing but reductive. Worse, venal. Finally, to consider genocide as “logically moot” is not logical. It’s fucking gross, and i feel absolutely sorry for you that you’ve come to this conclusion.
I can only hope you put more thought into this immediately
It’s only logically moot specifically because there’s only two options. Refusal to participate doesn’t change the fact that it will either be Biden or it will be Trump in the Oval Office next year. Choosing a third party will also not change that fact.
When functionally presented with two options, you have to compare them. Any similarities (which I don’t agree with the premise that they’re the same, but just for the sake of argument) are thus rendered moot. It’s not moot in the larger sense of human suffering, but when it comes to LGBTQ rights, women’s rights, etc., Trump is the last person to support those issues. Biden is the only way forward if that’s something you care about.
How you decide to frame the issue isn’t the same for me. I don’t share your, forgive me, extreme views of what is happening in the government or society. If voting is only a positive act for you, then it sounds like you’ve made up your mind. I choose to vote based on other factors, and just like my “chess” falls upon deaf ears with you, so do your impassioned pleas fall upon deaf ears with me.
So there will be no immediate anything. You hope in vain.
This is also not true, which is why i said your idea of what voting itself is reductive. There are of course more than two options this and every election.
Allowing your mind to bend to their narrative, believing that voting is a binary choice is one way their democracy-destroying little game works.
If voting were only two choices, i wouldn’t vote at all as you seem to suspect. but it isn’t. i will in fact be participating as i have done for 30 years. Just not gonna do it the way you’d like, an imaginary binary election. Before you say it, there is also no such thing as throwing a vote away.
What other options are there?
Ok lol, mask off. Every…ridiculous opinion you have shared? I have heard, considered, and through careful thought dismissed. Before. Long before.
You came here today show your knowlege. Which is limited to what you hear on tv? Cool. If i want to hear a parrot ill buy a bird.
So i don’t care if youve just got to get one more smug shot in, hurry and do it then get the fuck out of my face. No blocks homie, just get gone.
withhold your vote as a bloc with the rest of the left. force the dems to bargain with you if they ever want to hold office ever again.
This is simplistic. There are only two outcomes to the upcoming election, but there are countless political strategies, many of which do not treat 2024’s presidential election as a totalizing issue. Other people, for example, think that what matters is building a strong leftist opposition so that we can escape the cycle of Republican vs Republican-lite elections, accepting that it means not giving unconditional support to so-called “moderates” for whom genocide is moot. Your logic only makes sense because you are question-begging by framing the question like the future doesn’t exist beyond the next four years.
until and unless we collectively withhold our votes and so express real and actual power, the left will always remain powerless. repudiate the democrats or be forever doomed to an endless cycle of voting for the “lesser” evil. (no moral calculus can ever frame a genocidier as the lesser evil - he’s so far beyond the moral event horizon that I no longer care to calculate)
And Trump does?
lol
lmao
k
I mean, by virtue of the the fact that Trump will 1000% make things worse in Gaza, literally yes.
You’re talking like if you get the option between getting shot in the foot or the face, you’d pick the face just to make a point.
The whole point is saying I’d rather not get shot at all and I’m not going to give any approval to get shot anywhere. Especially when the question is actually closer to where would I like to shoot some random civilian. I’m not going to give approval to shoot them in the foot nor the face.
Cool, by opting out they get shot in the face. But you get to feel better about yourself so congrats.
And you get to order someone shot in the foot (but let’s be real, they’re going to end up shot in the face regardless face) so congrats on giving the order too I guess
Look, dude, I’d absolutely love for the situation to be better than it is, but the fact of the matter is, it’s not. These are our choices. You can pick bad or worse, and if you don’t pick, it’s going to be worse. You can dream about better options all you want, and if they were available I’d absolutely go for them, but refusing to avoid making the situation worse because you want it to be better is idealistic at best and actively harmful at worst. I’m glad you can feel good about yourself letting the worst come to pass, but some of us are actually trying to do damage control, and that defeatist attitude isn’t helping. That’s my stance, and I’ve spent enough time expounding on it. You can take it or leave it, either way I’m done.
Jfc nobody said to vote for trump.
Realistically what do you hope to accomplish by voting for someone else or not voting?
Goddammit I never said not to vote. What do you hope to accomplish by only voting?
Okay then answer the other part of my question. That’s why I included it.
What other part?
I’m not expecting to accomplish much of anything by voting for someone else. I prefer direct action.
It’s the logical conclusion of your statements
It’s sarcasm. And voting for a minor party candidate is a vote for Republicans.
everyone knows that when you vote third party those votes are just tallied up and given to whatever republican is running
voting for a minor party candidate is, quite literally, not a vote for republicans.
That’s not how FPTP works. You need to go read up on FPTP and the Spoiler Effect.
https://www.commoncause.org/colorado/democracy-wire/first-past-the-post-voting-our-elections-explained/
okay so I read the whole thing. it describes a really shitty, extant system. it defines the spoiler effect. it shows how the spoiler effect makes the already shitty system even more shitty. all that’s fine and well. never once does it say that voting for minor party candidates is literally a vote for republicans, which was the actual statement that I took issue with.
you’re welcome to make the argument that the result is the same and that’s why you specifically will only vote strategically. that’s fine. it does absolutely nothing to compel me to vote for either democrats or for republicans. or even to vote at all for that matter. why participate in such a fundamentally broken system at all then? just to give one more point to 99% hitler? no thank you.
it’s not a strategic vote! it’s an abdication of strategy that pretends only the current election matters! it assumes the present is eternal and that no electoral strategy could ever consider the future. an electoral strategy would admit the left has no real power absent a dedicated bloc and would work on creating one. to do so, you must be willing to sacrifice a few elections, because you must withhold votes and force the democrats to the bargaining table. otherwise you will forever be trapped in a cycle of voting for the “lesser” evil. FPTP does not preclude a long-term electoral strategy.
Because I have no choice. “The System” happens to me whether I like it or not; the laws happen to me whether I like it or not, and if I can have 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler, I’ll take the lesser. My refusal to participate doesn’t change the fact that those are my two options, and one will be chosen.
I would rather have a voice than let someone else choose for me.
have at it. i refuse to dignify the actions of any genocidal maniac with an endorsement in the form of my vote. simple as.
Kudos to you for disagreeing without descending into name calling. A rare quality.
So you’re just incredibly naive or incredibly selfish to not care about the results of what you do as long as you can pretend to be principled about it.
Ur voting for 99% Hitler???
Libs are really telling on themselves even nore than usual these days. Hard not when you’re supporting genocide i guess
THEY SAID THE LINE
What makes you hexbearians think this is a good response to anything? Literally just “I depicted you as the soyjak”
And what did I say that was incorrect?
I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anything as incorrect in electoral strategy as voting for “99% Hitler”. elections come every 4 years. a loss today need not remain a loss forever. make the dems come to you! force them to bargain with the left instead of the right!
Um actually, voting for a third party is a vote for Democrats sweety.
Explain to me the math on that one, because I’m not seeing how a +1 for a party that’s not the GOP is somehow a +1 for the GOP.
What values and goals could anyone possibly share with Biden? You’re pro-modern Jim Crow? Pro-imperial hegemony? Pro-genocide? Pro-banks keeping peoole un debt forever? That’s all he’s ever stood for
What values and goals does Biden share with Leftists, other than not being as far-right as the Republicans?
Who said anything about voting for Trump? I myself am voting Biden most likely because he isn’t as bad as Trump, but I share practically nothing with his views.
What person is criticizing Biden from the left but actually voting for Trump, other than the strawman you created?
Supporting of unions is a pretty big thing biden supports that leftists also support, nevermind his views and actions on climate change and bodily autonomy.
Your comment is wildly reductionist and supremely ignorant.
Biden has given concessions to Unions, that does not make him pro-Union. He has fallen excessively short on Climate goals and has done little to expand abortion protections.
Being less right wing for a liberal does not make Biden a Leftist, it just makes him less of a bad thing.
Your comment is wildly reductionist and supremely ignorant.
“Biden helped unions get what they want, that doesnt mean he helps unions.”
Do you even read what you’re typing?
On the subject of abortions, what do you think he can do short of publicly speaking about his support for bodily autonomy? A president isn’t a king.
Why are so many progressives so uneducated on how our government works?
Biden tossed scraps, yes. He has not proposed radical changes to the anti-union policies that exist everywhere, he has not supported strikes, and he has not expanded protections to Unions. Believe it or not, a Pro-Union candidate can do these things! Biden isn’t actually pro-union, he just tosses scraps when strikes happen.
Yes, I do read what I am typing. I want a Pro-Union candidate, not a neutral one, so I will criticize Biden.
I believe Biden can quit playing softball with regards to abortion. Biden is the king of virtue signaling, he isn’t a king but he does have power.
Moreover, Biden is a Capitalist going far out of his way to support ongoing genocide. I am not going to be happy with his Capitalism, and I certainly won’t be happy with his genocide.
Im not sure it’s possible to be more pro-union than being literally the only president in united states history to ever step foot onto a picket line and protest.
He is doing what he is legally able to do for abortions and unions. The president is not a lawmaker, nor a king like you would seem to have him be.
Again, its not his fault you seem to be ignorant of the structure of the US government.
I literally gave you examples of how a President could be more Pro-Union: by presenting and helping pass actual Pro-Union legislation that protects worker’s rights to strike and form unions. Another good one would be mandating that all companies be unionized, or companies of a certain size must have union representatives participate in Board meetings.
Virtue signaling does nothing materially, it’s an optics thing.
He isn’t doing what he can do, lmao.
I am not ignorant of the structure of the US government just because you believe the job of the US president is to shout slogans and steer the country off vibes, lmao
Which legislation that republicans have allowed to hit floor should biden support?
Its also certifiably nuts you think a president should unilaterally demand all companies be unionized - like the king you would have him be. The destruction that would be wrought is unimaginable.
You just dont understand how us politics work.
So supportive of unions, thats why he adopted Ronald Reagans policy of making it illegal to strike . All hail the Union loving strike breaker. Couldnt even get em sick days give me a break.
Edit: yes they eventually got sick days, only one of these things was passed via law/ executive order, guess which one? The intervention was a huge step backwards for labor rights
https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid catch up, buddy
This is blatantly false.
Biden did get the rail workers union sick days. Its not his fault you cant read.
https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
He made sure to remove agency from the workers in the process
The end result may have been favorable, but it seems wack to use this an example of Biden supporting unions. Seems more like he disenfranchised them instead
The union strikes and saber rattling achieved their own results. The workers had the power since they scared the establishment to give them what they wanted. However Biden took all the credit for it even though he crushed their union rights which just goes to show how irrevocably damaged the liberal brain is
Either way, it’s an example of Biden placing himself above workers. I was misled by all the liberals posting about how great Biden was for giving the workers what they want.
I am not immune to propaganda.
false dichotomy
Denial.
I mean, if you’re going to pretend this is the first election of all time and the last election ever, sure. or you could take history into account and make a longer term plan so that you don’t have to keep making choices about who the “lesser evil” is. if you abdicate any possible collective power, the ratchet will keep turning the dial further and further towards fascism.
Unfortunately, it’s a very real dichotomy
just because trump would be worse, doesnt mean biden isnt really bad
Biden isn’t in charge of Israel.
He’s in charge of the weapon hose and has been cranking that shit further open for 7 months when he could have shut it off with a single phone call.
Or shit, here’s a rogue world leader doing a genocide. Isn’t that the kind of thing the US is supposed to extrajudicially coup and kill people for in the name of democracy? Nope, all of the sudden the world empire is helpless to stop a tiny fake country that literally depends on it to exist.
he approved a lot of money to go there
and he did absolutely nothing to stop it
Is biden in charge of the purse strings of congress?
I’m trying to think what values biden actually shares with me.
He passed the IRA, rejoined the Paris Agreement, repealed the transgender ban in the military, restored net neutrality, defended the use of mifepristone, supported Ukraine, and relieved some student debt. That’s enough to earn my vote.
Right, but when your beliefs involve the dissolution of capitalism, these are more like perpetuating the system.
Even the people who believe in dissolving capitalism have accomplished nothing but perpetuate the system.
Its that shitty Ben shapiro meme. “You hate the system yet you participate in it, curious?”
Yeah not really many options when you’ve gotta put food on the table. The change comes from the top down down down Esit: I may or may not be misreading your comment.
The top doesn’t have as many options as people think.
Ben Shapiro is dumb and I don’t fault anyone who can’t bring about a worker’s paradise, provided they make an incremental improvement in the lives of others. That includes Biden.
After taking millions of tiny steps forward, we’ll eventually get to where we need to be.
Too bad at this rate, the planet will be burnt to a crisp before we get anywhere close to good enough.
No time for baby steps. Perhaps its selfish, but Id like these changes in my lifetime, please.
It’s not selfish. People are SUFFERING and DYING. The people who are selfish are the ones who don’t want to give up the privilege and luxury they have that is only made possible by the suffering and exploitation of others these reforms would help the most.
That’s the biggest lol in history
I think the biggest LOL in history is Main Characters who think they can immediately solve the world’s problems. They literally have a 0% success rate.
All of our actual progress has always been incremental.
(as much as an individual can be responsible obviously another ghoul would have done the same things etc.)
Just out here telling on yourself, huh?
Lol
uhh he rides trains sometimes? can we ban him from trains? I feel gross taking trains a genocidier rode.
Well you are a fucking idiot who doesn’t understand what a vote is.
A+ genocide shilling here.
Such a low bar. No wonder your country is crumbling.
Sarcasm. I’m making fun of people.