So, it’s well-known that lithium batteries lose capacity when temperatures drop well below freezing. However, since they generate some heat while discharging too, it seems logical that insulating the battery to retain this heat could help extend range in cold weather. My question is whether this makes a noticeable difference in real-world use?

I’ve been browsing eBay, but most covers seem to fall into two categories: uninsulated rain covers for external batteries or neoprene sleeves for built-in ones. My fatbike has an external battery, so I quickly jerryrigged a cover using a 20mm Armaflex sheet I had lying around. While it obviously didn’t hurt, I can’t say I noticed much improvement either.

Does anyone have long-term experience with insulating battery covers? I’d also appreciate recommendations for a good cover for external battery or tips on how to DIY one.

  • _haha_oh_wow_@sh.itjust.worksM
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    3 days ago

    My bike has a battery that goes inside the frame, but my strategy has been to just bring the battery (or bike itself) inside and it seems to help enough to get to my destination (usually my office) where I can warm the battery up again.

    Neoprene sleeves are a popular option and should work fine but a word of caution: Never charge a frozen battery. Always let it warm up before you start charging or it could damage the battery.

  • Uschaan@lemmy.world
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    3 days ago

    Frame mounted battery: I keep it inside, and when I arrive I bring it inside there too. I have not experienced degraded performance at all. 20min rides, a few below freezing, all winter. ☃️

    • Free_OpinionsOP
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      3 days ago

      20 minutes isn’t enough to even get me to the trailhead. I’m talking +3 hours in -15°C (5°F)

  • litchralee@sh.itjust.works
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    3 days ago

    It’s an interesting question and not one I had even considered. Prior knowledge suggests that it’s at least somewhat plausible to thermally manage an ebike battery, seeing as electric automobiles do something similar in freezing weather. However, the large packs of automobiles are unfavorable when it comes to passive heat loss, being made of a lot of metal (which has a higher thermal capacity than air) and having lots of surface area compared to volume. So the heat generated during cell discharge is being wicked away by a larger area. So an ebike battery should stand a better chance, I would think.

    So I started crunching some numbers. From a different comment, you suggested a use-case of 3+ hrs in -15 C weather. For the purpose of this exercise, I considered this battery pack, because it seemed fairly representative of a common ebike battery. This is the type of pack which slides into an open slot, exposed on basically all sides to weather. I thought about considering frame-integral packs, but there’s the issue of modeling them generally, and more importantly, I think the frame would become a substantial heat sink in -15 C conditions, since there’s no way to add insulation between a frame-integrated pack and the frame itself. My working assumption is that this specimen battery pack can be wrapped in insulation on all sides, for the most optimistic results. Also, I assume the battery pack is room temperature prior to starting the sub-freezing journey.

    This pack is configured as 13s5p, so we know there are 65 cells inside. I think it’s reasonable to assume they are the common 18650 cells. I found this paper regarding a model for heat generation for one particular 18650 cell during discharge, which neatly included the data they collected. As we would expect, the heat output of a single cell depends on the discharge rate, and they recorded data at 0.5C, 1C, and 1.5C (Table 6).

    Since the use-case will test the endurance of an ebike battery pack to complete discharge over at least 3 hours, I will use the lowest discharge rate, since a 0.5C rate means every cell would be depleted in 2 hours. Once again, this will give us optimistic results for a 3 hr use-case.

    The plot from Table 6 at 0.5C remains substantially at 25000 W/m^3 for the first 80% of time, and then quadruples by the end of the discharge. Since we are assessing the steady-state heat of the battery, we will not consider the increased tail-end heating. A single 18650 cell has a volume of 16 mL, so the entire pack has 1040 mL (0.00104 m^3) worth of heat-generating battery. Using the figure from the literature, this pack has an overall discharge heat of 26 W.

    If a single hand warmer produced 26 W continuous, that would make for a very toasty hand. But we need to consider the heat loss for the battery pack’s casing, to see whether a substantial fraction remains to keep the cells warm. To do that, we can observe that this specimen pack is mostly rectilinear, so we can approximate it as a simple 6-sided shape, with dimensions 390x110x75 mm. Crunching the numbers, we arrive at a total exposed surface area of 0.1604 m^2.

    For this exercise, we would have to know how much heat the casing can exchange with the environment. But since we’re trying to find an optimistic value, we can instead consider an impractically well-insulated scenario where the cells are enclosed in a thick casing of polystyrene on all sides. Specifically, I am using a value of 25 mm thickness of polystyrene, thus RSI 0.97, aka R-value 5.6. The RSI value has the units m^2*K/W. We can arrange an equation to yield K (the temperature difference in deg C) as follows:

    K = (RSI * Watts)/area-in-sq-m

    We have all the numbers, so we just plug them in, yielding a temperature difference of +157 C. So at -15 C ambient temperature, this pack would be at 142 C, or basically on fire. 🔥

    Ok, that’s obviously way too much insulation, and while shocking, I shouldn’t be too surprised, since even 1 W continuous is enough for a wall-wart to be warm to the touch. Inside a sealed polystyrene compartment, I would also expect a wall wart to rise to a rather high steady state temperature.

    What we’ve learned is that it’s actually decently plausible, although every figure here is optimistic. The cell heat output is going to be lower at lower discharge below 0.5C, possibly being half or 1/3 as much. That could sink the heat output to only 9 W. And real world insulation would likely be something like 6 mm of neoprene, so R-value of 1 (RSI 0.17). These more pessimistic numbers bring the temperature difference down to just +10 C delta, so in -15 C ambient, the pack would still be below freezing.

    But I think what’s instructive here is that the cell heat can indeed be sufficient, and the insulation can be suitably thick. Other issues will be whether the insulation also absorbs heat from the sun during riding, and what should happen if the pack overheats under all that insulation whilst in slightly warmer weather.

    • Free_OpinionsOP
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      3 days ago

      What a thorough reply, thanks a ton for your effort!

      I’m continuing my experiments with the armaflex cover that I quickly threw together. I was also thinking of buying a cheap thermometer to monitor the temperature between the battery and the cover. Currently it seems like the most difficult thing with it is to make an airtight seal around the battery so that cold air doesn’t get under the insulation. Also the bottom side of the battery is near impossible to insulate so it pretty much can only be done on the top and sides, though I might have an idea for the bottom side too.

      • litchralee@sh.itjust.works
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        3 days ago

        Very nice! Might I suggest a thermocouple rather than a thermometer? A thermocouple would be very compact and for the sort that hooks up to a multimeter, it can be taped into place underneath layers of insulation, so you wouldn’t have to remove or reattach it every time you want to take a measurement between rides.

        Can you describe which ebike or what battery pack you’re testing with? I want to get a better idea of what you mean by the top/bottom sides of the pack. A link or photo would be excellent.

        • Free_OpinionsOP
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          3 days ago

          I was thinking of using one of those thermometers that have a wired probe for measuring the outside temperature as well. That way I could see side-by-side both outside and inside the case temperature.

          My bike is GZR Black RAW. What I mean is that insulating between the battery and the frame is the tricky spot and even if I have the sides and top insulated the bottom side will still remain exposed. Infact, it seems as if the dock to which the battery attaches to also acts as a heatsink of sorts. It’s partly made of aluminium. Here’s a picture of what my bike looks like:

  • BlazarNGC@lemm.ee
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    3 days ago

    I think your use case won’t be enough difference any way you cut it. Range extension in freezing temps? Do you reuse all the way through your battery usually?

    • Free_OpinionsOP
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      3 days ago

      If you’re asking wether I regularly come home with an empty battery, then yes.

      Why do you think “my use case” wouldn’t show a difference?

      • BlazarNGC@lemm.ee
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        3 days ago

        I work with bikes and I don’t think the amount of insulation you’d be able to fabricate will increase the ambient temp around the battery to increase efficiency or capacity in any noticeable way.

  • Brkdncr@lemmy.world
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    3 days ago

    I wonder if adding heat strips to keep it warm like an engine heater while charging would be of any help.

    • Free_OpinionsOP
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      3 days ago

      I have those reusable hand warmers that you can reactivate by boiling in the water. If ones like that but larger existed then maybe putting few under the insulation on my way back home would be able to squeeze those few extra kilometers out of it.

      • _haha_oh_wow_@sh.itjust.worksM
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        3 days ago

        Anything that keeps it from freezing would help, just be careful not to let it overheat too. They also sell battery powered heating vests/blankets that could be repurposed into a makeshift heater. Zippo also sells fuel powered heaters (as well as battery powered hand heaters).

        • litchralee@sh.itjust.works
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          3 days ago

          just be careful not to let it overheat too

          My other comment explores how much insulation might be needed to make a battery pack too warm. And it’s a difficult pickle, since insulating a pack well tends to imply that the insulation won’t be removed later. And yet, the narrow temperature range of li-ion means either the insulation must be shed to keep the pack happy or – bizarrely – some active cooling is needed to keep an insulated pack from getting too warm.

          • _haha_oh_wow_@sh.itjust.worksM
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            2 days ago

            Yeah, adding a heater to that mix further complicates things too. You could rig up some thermistors and a display or buy a smol thermometer to monitor it, but most of the pre-made insulators I’ve seen have velcro strips that allow you to take it off as needed.

            Personally, I usually just switched to my regular bicycle so I didn’t have to worry about it but last summer the faulty fender on my ENGWE EP-2 Pro failed and broke my arm so I haven’t been able to ride.

            Lesson learned: Don’t cheap out on your ride! Don’t think I’ll ever buy an ENGWE again, they wouldn’t even cover my medical bills.

              • _haha_oh_wow_@sh.itjust.worksM
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                2 days ago

                The fender of a few different ENGWEs do not have any sort of emergency release to pop them off in the event of a failure, so when they fail (and they often do, because the old mount they used was garbage too), the whole fender wraps around the front tire and sends the rider into the pavement. Sucks to happen at 12-15 mph, but it’s a lot worse at 20+

                They claim to have fixed it on newer models but they never did anything about the old ones and plenty are still out in the market now. If you have one, you can either take the front fender off entirely or replace the bolts with zip ties that will brake when the mount fails instead of yeeting you into concrete. Alternately, you can buy a better, safer fender.

                If you want to learn more about the subject in general, Sheldon Brown wrote a pretty good article about it. To be fair, it can happen on any bike without a properly designed fender so keep an eye out if you use them. It’s also a good idea to regularly check over every part of your ride and make sure nothing is loose, damaged, etc. (and always wear a helmet of course).

                • litchralee@sh.itjust.works
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                  2 days ago

                  As it happens, I’ve been meaning to get a front fender, as ebike speeds are sufficient for the front tire to fling water up and directly into my face. I’ve never actually owned a bike with a front fender so this is useful info for me. Thanks!

      • Telorand@reddthat.com
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        3 days ago

        Keeping the “don’t overheat it” advice in mind, I wonder if you could rig up some sort of Peltier heater or resistive heater that is connected to your pedals.

    • Mr_Blott
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      3 days ago

      Yeah those chemical boot warmers you get for skiing would work