CW: article contains swears
Each one of these items and tokens and sheets is important. Each one of these pieces have been carefully considered by brilliant designers. Their role is clear. If I looked right now, I’m sure every token is explained somewhere in a game manual that unfortunately reads like a VCR repair guide that’s been run through Google Translate eight times. ‘Remember to put the second deck over the initial deck so the last piece from the regular meeples pool does not cross into the irregular meeples pool before the dice rolls a zero’. That’s not an actual line in the manual; I’m too lazy to dig through a board game box that’s larger than the ones I use to move furniture. Someone will get mad at me about this and, honestly, they are right.
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I can’t recommend enough to write your own rule summary. Write it once, and reorganize it as much as you can with the goal to teach it in a fluent way. Teaching also means giving few components to players when you explain them, simulate actions physically (When you say I draw a card, you draw a card, When you say I push ressource A token here, you push the token, etc.).
With heavy games, players expect the owner to be a teacher. Not everyone is good at this. The owner role is to ensure peoples don’t spend a bad time with the game. Teaching the rules in a engaging way is part of owner responsibility.
This is how I take it. I have few heavy game but I try to learn rules and learn to teach rules as much as I can so players feel confident after first turn.
Also, it can help if you play the digital version first (official or e.g. on tabletop simulator, when it’s a scripted game). Sometimes the complexity leads to some barriers, that can be navigated easier with some help. Or it can take off some tedious tasks that are error prone.
E.g. I tried playing Gaia Project twice and was overwhelmed. Then we tried the official digital version. It’s still really complex, but the digital version just takes the burden to calculate the exchange table for the ressource types and offers you moves, that you just didn’t see because you miscalculated the costs and also makes sure you pay the right amount.
It doesn’t mean you need to plan less, as you still need to take the ressource cost of your future moves into account, but you don’t need to explain every second time you pay for a move how and why this is valid.
I totally agree. By physically preventing (or forcing) you to do some actions, it helps you to shape the rules in your mind. To confirm and invalidate what you think.
Fun fact: in the digital version of Gaia Project is a link in the alliance screen leading to a web page explaining all alliance rules in detail, as many players reported bugs with how the game handles alliances - but in reality it just implements the rules as written. They can get complicated and many players don’t realize they were playing wrong.
Yes! Digital version are always properly ruled.
But if many players understand the rule in a specific wrong way, it means the rules are badly written.
I haven’t played the game in English and did just learn, that its ‘federations’ in English and not alliances. TIL. This has a slightly different meaning than my localized version.
I don’t think, that the rules are badly written in this case, when checking the rule book. You can check page 8 here, which I find quite clear: https://capstone-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Gaia-Project-Rules-CG.0609sm2.pdf
But then, since the game is really complex, there can be confusion about the federation rules, especially following all three and keeping in mind, that these rules are independent of each other - and forgetting to evaluate all three rules when adjusting your federation when you make a change to make it compliant. See this BGG post for an example: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2120375/official-federation-faq
I completed Gloomhaven. It was a MONUMENTAL undertaking, required diligent organization and a dedicated table that was never used for anything else. You also need a bachelor’s degree in the rulebook (or just get comfortable with house rules that fill in)
I’m 15% of the way through the expansion (Frosthaven) and am utterly exhausted. There’s so much to do and so many opportunities to put something back wrong and now my draw pile somehow has the discards in it. Fuck.
But it was a glorious journey. Gloomhaven added a welcome interface layer that classic DnD was missing for me. And the combat system is so colorful! That said, the game basically demands a companion app for tracking health. Definitely not for the faint of heart, but immensely rewarding.
Yeah Gloomhaven left me exhausted, too.
Plus, I’ll be honest: the main card selection system is brilliant. Unlocking characters was fun. The rest was… there was something else?! It was that forgettable and flat. The story barely exists and is at its best very thin window dressing. The interactions are nonsensical due to the random nature. The game is grindy as fuck.
I dunno. Fun once. I have zero intention of playing any more of it or any successor, ever. Done way more than enough Gloomhaven for my life.
Amen.
Playing solo, I’ve been close to completing Gloomhaven for weeks/months now after a year/2 year-long hiatus. I had gotten about half-way through, but then put it down bc of everything else I had still waiting. I picked it back up a bit ago and have been methodically going through each branch of the “storyline” and unlocking what I can of it. I’ve just about unlocked every class I can, but everytime I turn around there’s something else to do, some new scenario that needs completing, I just don’t want to put it back down again bc I know it will be another year or two before I pick it back up again and by that point I’ll have forgotten how to play and I’ll be too far along to try to relearn it again. I want to at least finish out the last of the classes and the actual storyline before taking a break from it.
My biggest dislike of the system is how ridiculous some of the puzzles have been. I like the tactical puzzle and hand management aspects, but some of the secret envelopes with puzzles are just batshit insane. I took one look at one in particular, spent 10 minutes trying to figure it out, then gave up and looked online. I realized there was no way in hell I would’ve ever figured that one out on my own.
I am not into board games. What you describe sounds like Gamification, but in reverse. Do you people not have exhausting, tedious day jobs to fill that space? Why even attempt something like this? Honestly curious.
Do your hobbies not have some less exciting but necessary aspects? I liken it to maintaining the gears or motor on a bike, motorcycle, or boat. Or perhaps running drills or stretches to improve your sport performance. Or fiddling with settings to get a PC game running just right. People can find enjoyment in even the mundane tasks of their hobbies.
That said, Gloomhaven leans into that aspect hard. But once it’s setup, there’s a rich and complex game to play. It was just hard for my group because of busy schedules.
I don’t have that many hobbies. Most games run on my PC just fine on their own, and I don’t do the stretching that is usually recommended in my sport because at my level, that#s not what’s holding me back/I have no health issues. I do fun things for fun. If something isn’t fun, that’s work, not a hobby. That might just be me, though.
Man, feels like you’re being a little pedantic. Stretches are to prevent injuries, not just for the injured. Maybe you’re not doing them, but you should be. You also concede not all of your PC games run fine out of the box. Do you ever travel? Do you enjoy the packing/unpacking just as much as the trip itself? Do you enjoy the shuffle into/out of the venue when you’re seeing a game/show/concert? It’s not bizarre for enjoyable things to have some mundane but necessary aspects.
As I said, I was curious about how other people feel, I was not judging. For me, the ratio of tedium to enjoyment has got to be right. I don’t enjoy alpine climbing because you gotta do 4 hour approaches to get 2 hours of climbing, then walk down 6 hours. That ain’t my thing. If packing took a week for 3 days vacation, you would feel the same, I am pretty certain. Same thing with some boardgames: If learning the rules and setting everything up takes longer than the game itself, why bother?
I have a theory that people seek what they’re missing in their lives through their hobbies.
Specifically, in my own life I’ve noticed that the times I’ve gone deep into rich, complicated, and demanding hobbies, are the times when I’ve felt understimulated at school or work.
Conversely, at times when I’ve felt overstimulated at school or work I only want to watch TV or play simple party games to unwind or destress.
I am curious if other people feel this way.
That’s a really interesting thought. Makes sense to me. I don’t feel understimulated at work, so maybe that’s just not something for me then.
Because it’s fun! The actual gameplay of managing your incredibly flavorful class hand that evolves as you choose when leveling up is immensely satisfying. Bring along some friends, and you can drop entire weekends into this game over many months.
Easily my favorite board game.
But I’m also tired of the depth of complexity lol. Very similar to raiding in WoW - Fun. Exhausting.
If we had had the space for a dedicated Gloomhaven table, I reckon we would’ve made it farther in the campaign than we did. It was a blast when we played, but it asked a lot of our time.
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Something I’ve always found difficult about these large games is getting the rules across to the others. My regular group are all gamers - we’ve all dabbled in the bigger games and can parse dense rulebooks. But the onus always falls on one of us to learn the rules and try to teach the others. I’ve sent “How to Play Oath” videos to countless prospective players who see the 30 minutes runtime and give up on the idea. Those that didn’t watch the video said the game only started to click after 4 plays. Which is a hilarious amount of Oath.
You need to learn to teach games you own. Rules vids don’t work for me even 10% as well as a decent teach at the table. You have to be prepared, as even a midweight game like Cosmic Encounter takes 15 mins of monologuing. SU&SD have a good vid on how to do it well.
I’m not asking everyone to learn the game off the bat - but if I can point them to someone who’s rehearsed, edited and highlighted important rules before it even hits the table then that’s all I need. Just some level of exposure so I’m not being torn 5 different ways by a Q&A session over which components are what.
It’s not unreasonable to ask your players to do some of the rules legwork if at all possible.
I related to this article a lot. It’s the same sentiment of this classic Family Guy clip: The game is Euchre (YouTube Link)
I like the idea of everyone sitting around a table, effortlessly playing a game and having a great time—but adult friendships are tough. When you get to hang out for an hour here, two hours there, every few-to-several weeks or months, investing an hour or more into learning the rules of a game that may or may not be fun is a tall order.
The problem in the clip is that Lois appears to be reading the rules for the first time as she is explaining them. It would go down much better if someone at the table actually knew the game. The person bringing the game should know it well enough to confidently teach it and should be able to judge if the rest of the group will enjoy it. For new games that means one person has to prepare beforehand.
There are exceptions, some groups might enjoy learning a game together for the first time but I wouldn’t risk it especially when time is limited.
I think there are enough tabletop games in the hobbiest game space for everyone. That means there’s a very wide range of games from the simplistic to the complicated. I think if expectations are not kept in check, it can be easy to bite off more than one can chew.
Moreover, everyone’s going to find different things complicated. I’ve been in this hobby for decades. I don’t find Gloomhaven particularly complicated. I very much enjoy hex and chit war games. But god damn, I cannot wrap my head around Oath. There’s just something about it in which the rules don’t click for me.
One of the first things I do when considering a new purchase is head over to BGG and read some reviews. If it looks up my alley, then I’ll give the game a go.
I’ve come to the same realization with regard to campaign games like Gloomhaven, as well as any board game that takes more than about 3 hours to complete, like Twilight Imperium or War of the Ring.
I enjoy these games and admire their epic scope, but the stamina and commitment required to complete them is too much for me and my middle-aged group. Congratulations to those who can manage it.
We play almost exclusively euro-style games, and the sweet spot for us is about 2 hours, plus or minus 30 minutes.
Finally someone said it. There was a reason giant hex-and-chit wargames started to become computerized back in the 80s.Human beings are bad at tracking petty variables.
I play in several groups of people with very different backgrounds of experience and willingness top deep dive rules.
My main game is mansion of madness. Not the most complex one, but already several hours long with some crucial rules. The game does not need a dedicated game master as that part is done by an app. But the game pieces, cards are physical objects.
I did two things to improve the game experience for every one.
First, the organization of all cards, objects, board material. I have put every thing in labeled boxes. The card are grouped by type and alphabetical sorted . This really really helped a lot to speed the game up. And often there are only marginal waiting times to find things. So the players are way more focussed on the game.
Second, I adapted my play style a little bit. As it is my game, I’m often the Referee and solve ruling question. So I can confirm that often by owning the game you often are the unofficial game leader or game master.
But if I play in a group with experienced players, I can get them involved. As I have everything in boxes, i can easily say: you are in charge of these kind of items and place the box in front of them. Another player for this kind of tokens. For each other player it is only one type of material with it’s rules. But for me I can remove several parts of the rules from my responsibility.
If I play with a group nearly completely with first time players, I sometimes don’t play with them, instead completely focus on the role of game master. It works for me with this game, as it is very interesting to see how my friends behave in problem solving situations or how they solve the puzzles. And in this case I can focus on explaining the rules to them. Check on their train of thoughts. And with this “training”, after the second game the other people are fit to overtake simple tasks.
I’ve made this realization with multiplayer-only games, but I play solo and have been slowly getting into the big box games I have lying around, it would take forever trying to complete that shit with friends. I learned awhile ago that it’s just too much of a hassle trying to get people together for a regular boardgame night, it’s just not in the cards for me. I play in a weekly rpg/d&d game, but there’s a never a chance in our group to pull people away from rpgs.
First thing I needed to do though was give up on getting anything new, so I’ve almost completely cut myself off from any new kickstarters, I don’t need anything else to add to the pile.
Glory to Rome doesn’t belong here, it’s a small card game and not at all hard to get on the table. It has the opposite problem, a lot of people would love to play it but it’s impossible to get a copy these days (unless you print it yourself).
