There are quite a few resources available for learning spoken Cantonese but i’ve found it difficult to find resources to learn Cantonese grammar.
For example, the sentence “he asked me to send you some photos” is, in my opinion, not a difficult sentence to translate in many languages but it seems particularly difficult in cantonese:
佢叫我 send的畫比你 keui yiu ngoh send dik waak bei nei he + ask + I + send + of + photo + ? + you
I have found this is called the “passive voice” but i don’t understand the sentence order or why/where this “bei” is used.
Does anyone have any good resources for learning cantonese grammar, especially making sentences?
I’m not a linguist so I can’t really answer your question, but IMO the “的” should be “啲”, which means “some”. A direct translation could be "He asks me (to) send some drawings/paintings to you. "
ah thank you! that would make more sense
do you know why “bei” is used here? I read that this character is used for comparison, i’ve read nowhere that it means “to”
" he + ask + i + send + some + photo + ? + you" no longer sounds like a passive sentence either
- I don’t think it’s in passive voice.
- The “bei” relevant to your original question should actually be “畀”, which means “give”.
- To express the meaning of “comparison”, the “bei” should be “比”. For example, “我比你高” means “I’m taller than you”. This is where your confusion comes from; the original sentence in your question does not really use the right word.
- Some people tend to mix the usage of 畀/俾/比, IMO the first two can somewhat be exchangeable, while the last one can’t. “俾” has a meaning of being passive, “我俾人打” means “I was assaulted by someone”.
The “bei” relevant to your original question should actually be “畀”, which means “give”.
I found on wikipedia that 比 is a character variation of 畀 in colloquial cantonese and it means to/for (see here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/畀#Chinese ) however i can’t find this topic mentioned anywhere in any lesson book
Colloquial Cantonese writing tends to keep the pronunciation correct while the characters used vary. From your link about “畀” I can’t find any references to “比”.
I’m pretty sure I can figure out what the writer wants to express no matter which one is used, but it’s hardly correct if “比” is used in my personal opinion.
Another thing to be aware of, it’s rare (if not never) to replace “比” by “畀/俾”.
From your link about “畀” I can’t find any references to “比”.
In this article (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/比) there is a box saying "For pronunciation and definitions of 比 – see 畀 (“(Cantonese) to give; for; to; by; etc.”). (This character, 比, is a variant form of 畀.) "
Thanks for your info, but given this is near the end of the explanation of “比”, this is probably rarely used. In fact, this usage gives me a feeling of being overly lazy or illiterate. My recommendation is to forget about this and use the other two when they’re more appropriate.
I can use the original one but I don’t think this variation is rarely used, it was used by a native speaker to translate the sentence
bei (比) has multiple meanings.
In this context it is “to” or “give to”. It is a very common use of this character.
I don’t think it is a passive sentence.
“佢叫我比 d 畫比你”, “佢叫我 send d 畫比你”, “佢叫我 send 啲畫比你”, "“佢叫我比啲畫比你” all convey the exact same meaning. All commonly used.
But “的” isn’t 100% the right word to use here. 的 is more like a mandarin equivalent of the (very cantonese) word 嘅 , which roughly takes on the role of a preposition to signal something that BELONGS to some other thing.
(i.e. basically you don’t say “佢叫我 send 的 畫比你”)
To break it down you can think of the sentence like this:
- 佢叫我 - he/she asks (asked, is asking) me to
- send / 比 啲畫 - send some pictures
- 比你 - to you
I am a strong believer of practicing makes perfect. If you are interested, just find opportunities and speak / listen. Quickest to learn that way I am sure.
(Now if I could only have an English teacher that can do the same to help me on my English…)
what does “d” mean in your sentences?
I am struggling with understanding these character variations in colloquial cantonese, ie where 比 is a variation of 畀 meaning to/for), i can’t find this lesson anywhere to learn about it
“d" is literally the verbal pronunciation of 啲.
Written Cantonese almost always has the propensity of being informal. If you go to any local HK online discussion forum for example, “d” and “啲” are simply used interchangeably by many (for the sake of convenience). It is so commonly used people don’t really think much about reading 啲 vs. “d”.
If you go buy a book on the other hand, you will rarely see any appearance of 啲 (or “d” for that matter). Instead you would more often see the more “formal” Mandarin Chinese expression of “些” - as in “他叫我給你一些畫” instead of “佢叫我比 d 畫畀你”.
(BTW the other comments about 畀 being the right word for “give” is absolutely right. My bad for using the wrong word that has the exact same pronunciation, 比)
(The only thing common between 比 and 畀 is the way these two words are pronounced in Cantonese. They have different meanings, and I wouldn’t even say they are variations of one another.)
Do you already have a better grasp of spoken Cantonese vs. written Cantonese? Or are you only starting to learn both at the same time? Being a native speaker I really can’t say for certain, but something tells me it may be easier to build some foundation on spoken Cantonese first, then at a later stage try to associate the actual characters with the spoken words that you already have a basic idea about (in terms of how the language is structured). Your progress may become faster that way…
(The only thing common between 比 and 畀 is the way these two words are pronounced in Cantonese. They have different meanings, and I wouldn’t even say they are variations of one another.)
I have read this comment on wiktionary "For pronunciation and definitions of 比 – see 畀 (“(Cantonese) to give; for; to; by; etc.”). (This character, 比, is a variant form of 畀.) ", i asked 2 native speaker friends to translate this sentence and one used 比 and the other used 俾.
I am learning both at the same time, although this seems to not be a good idea! Usually iwth other languages i learn to speak and write at the same time. Definitely there’s more resources for spoken cantonese. The problem is if i want to tell someone something, i have no idea how to write what I want to say…
There… you won’t see that anymore, as I have actually gone ahead and deleted the etymology from wiktionary. While many (myself included) use 比 in place of 畀 when we feel like it, strictly speaking this substitution is not correct. It is in a way similar to people writing “your going to paint me a picture” instead of “you’re going to paint me a picture”. Very commonly seen, but not correct technically speaking.
would you mind adding it back in that case? Perhaps you could add a note that this is a common mistake by native speakers (in fact, it was a native speaker who used 比 which led to my confusion). As someone learning cantonese, it helps to know what the typical mistakes made by native speakers are.
Nope not gonna do it :)
In Cantonese especially written Cantonese there are quite a number of ambiguities. I can readily think of one other example just like this - "黐"線 and "痴"線. Native speakers would see either of these terms and know the meaning right away (crazy), but it should be written as 黐線 not 痴線.
Again, very commonly seen, but not necessarily correct.
Haven’t checked, but honestly I doubt a lot of these cases are noted in the wiki as “common mistake by native speakers”.
I think the point is - it is probably sufficient for wiki to just contain what is correct. And the more you use the language, the more you will realize there are lots of unspoken rules that adds to the complexity (and beauty) of a language.
In Cantonese especially written Cantonese there are quite a number of ambiguities. I can readily think of one other example just like this - "黐"線 and "痴"線. Native speakers would see either of these terms and know the meaning right away (crazy), but it should be written as 黐線 not 痴線.
this is another helpful example lol
At the time I learnt English, someone told me that if you’re communicating with a native speaker, the receiver is probably competent to understand what you want to express.
You should not worry too much about writing. If not sure, just use words with the same pronunciation, or even words from other languages, like “d/啲”.
good to know, thank you! i was worrying about how to write what I wanted to say but it sounds like native speakers often use characters that sound like what they’re looking for
I will spend more time on listening and speaking. Thanks for all your help!
