- cross-posted to:
- micromobility@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- micromobility@lemmy.world
See, Apple? Even cars can do it :)
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The answer is massive government support. The cost of those stations has to be insane…imagine the inventory holding cost of those batteries
Imagine the cost of stations everywhere that would have tanker-trucks deliver fluid that you’d put in cars
This is not comparable.
The fuel is spent and sold. Gas stations usually only have a few days supply of inventory.
This is like holding engines in inventory to swap without notice on the spot. But in this case the engines cost $10k+.
The fee to swap is about $12…so you have to swap each battery about 800 times to break even. See how you’re wrong yet?
Well yeah but the comparison here should be against a typical BEV. ICE cars are already being phased out regardless.
Don’t worry, the US government will support its automakers by banning the competition.
That is, if they make totally cool and totally legal campaign contributions.
Competing is for the working class, not the 1%.
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I think swappable batteries could be a good solution to fires and probelms seen with long term battery health. Like if batteries were smaller and you swap it out rather than charging they could be inspected before being redistributed. In an ideal situation the cost of purchasing a battery would be removed from the vehicle price and shift to a subscription/interchange system. It could help consumers if their battery goes bad by not needing to buy a completly new one and prevent fires. Unfortunately, everything is terrible and I imagine this would inevitably turn to some kind of scummy, overpriced, preditory system. I am not sure if damage caused by batteries is enough to justify such a program but I think insurance companies and governments have or will look into it.
They’ll make it illegal to charge your own battery. And enshitification will guarantee perpetually rising prices, lower and lower range batteries, or some combination of the 2.
Ah so this is about swapping the battery on-the-go so you can get rid of your depleted one and get a freshly charged one within minutes.
That’s actually pretty cool then!
Not quite sure how this relates to Apple though.
It’s a joke about how apple made their phone even thinner and the battery still isn’t removable :P
I don’t oppose the idea of battery station, but who owns the battery then? When I bought the car, am I leasing the battery? How about used car?
The company (NIO) owns them and you are leasing the batteries. The car is cheaper this way, as you don’t buy the battery up front, but pay a monthly fee (~200+ in Germany).
You have a fixed number of swaps per month, above that you have to pay extra.
Source: colleague uses a car like this and explained the details.
I hope it’s not 200€ but it’s way higher than what I pay for the gas.
What if they EOL the battery and stops the leasing program? Now the perfectly fine car is non functional because it’s missing a battery. If I replace it, I’m just contributing more waste, not in materal but energy. Is that the “green” future we all after?
I’d assume you could still charge them the regular way. You’d just no longer get a fresh one, but that just puts you on par with the other EVs
The ownership is still questionable. Even if that’s the case, you’re stuck with the battery you last swapped in, which you don’t know the wear level or how long it will last.
It’s been a while since I’ve watched it myself, but remember them going into the ownership structure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w
There’s basically no way for them to not make it a subscription model.
So I can give an example. Here in Taiwan, Gogoro has put up a lot of battery swap stations for their electric scooters. When you buy the scooter, it comes with removable batteries which you can charge on your own. Or, you can buy a monthly subscription on top of it that gives you access to those battery stations, where you can ride up to one and swap a pair of freshly charged batteries into your scooter. Subscription price is tiered by Ah per month, if you go over the limit you pay extra per Ah.
In this case, yes I think Gogoro is in charge of maintaining/replacing old batteries. Subscription is separate from the scooter cost, so buying used should not affect your ability to subscribe to the plan.
I love that system
it comes with removable batteries which you can charge on your own
so it is your battery and got additional batteries you can swap on the road with a subscription? That looks promising.
However, this works for scooters is because the battery pack is small enough for hand carry and install. It won’t be on typical 4-wheel vehicles as those are about a thousand pound. Even if we can modular and miniaturize it like how Gogoro does, where to install it is a big problem. Obviously we can’t install it in the front compartment as that will be a fire hazard when crash.
so it is your battery and got additional batteries you can swap on the road with a subscription?
No, you don’t get additional batteries. Once you start using the swapping service, the battery that came with your scooter goes into circulation. I suppose when you decide to stop subscribing to the service, the batteries that you have currently will be yours to keep. (I don’t own a Gogoro btw)
Yeah, and I agree that this system works great with scooters but not for cars.
Shame. It will be nice if I get a set of batteries I know well when the scooter used less frequently and charging at home makes more sense. Rather gambling on what’s the quality/wear level of the next set will be.
Guess that’s how they introduce new batteries into the system, and cost them lesser. As long as there are new scooter owners and using the service, there will always be new batteries entering the circulation. All they have to do is pull out old batteries not fit for using out of the loop, and maybe repurpose them for something else, like grid power storage system.
Ratger gambling on what’s the quality/wear level of the next set will be.
You shouldn’t need to worry about getting bad batteries. Since it’s priced at an Ah/month basis (there are also km ridden per month plans), you can swap batteries whenever you feel like it. It is on Gogoro to maintain the health of the batteries, and swap in new ones when they go bad (or upgrade battery versions!).
All they have to do is pull out old batteries not fit for using out of the loop, and maybe repurpose them for something else, like grid power storage system.
That’s the idea!
You shouldn’t need to worry about getting bad batteries. Since it’s priced at an Ah/month basis (there are also km ridden per month plans), you can swap batteries whenever you feel like it. It is on Gogoro to maintain the health of the batteries, and swap in new ones when they go bad (or upgrade battery versions!).
I mean when I use the scooter less frequently (maybe I got a bigger car) or live somewhere else doesn’t have the station, thus canceling the subscription. On that, I guess I will be stuck on the last battery set I swapped in.
Ah I see. So I took a quick look at their contract and some articles, the ownership of the batteries is with Gogoro during your plan, and they give you the option to pause this plan (30 days minimum a time, 90 days max per year). If you decide to pause or cancel the plan, you will have to return the batteries you currently have, and they will give you spare batteries in return. I don’t think you’ll be guaranteed good batteries either way.
I guess it would either work like a subscription fee or a one time fee per swap
Subscription for my car? Don’t we have too much subscriptions already?
And neither solve the ownship problem, and a tons of other problems.
Subscription for fuel.
Gas is more like pas-as-you-go. Battery no so sure. And they are different by nature: gas can’t be reused, batteries can.
The energy inside both can’t be reused. Both a gas tank and battery can be refilled.
Gas is just easier to transfer between containers. Electricity needs it be moved inside its container.
Isn’t the whole thing about who owns the tank?
Electricity is incredibly easy to move between containers. That’s how electric cars work.
Making charging faster by removing most of the range (because you have way less volume to use if it’s removable) and making a cheap power source obscenely expensive makes no sense.
You pay a monthly fee (lease) that contains a certain number of swaps per month, above which you pay extra. The car is also cheaper this way, as you are not paying the full price of the the battery up front
No, you’re paying over and over for the battery.
Sort of like how you pay over and over for gas, without which your car doesn’t work?
Even when I don’t use it? How is it acceptable?
I don’t see anywhere that you can’t also just buy a battery and charge it yourself if you’d prefer that over a subscription.
Which the manufacture will either set a high price or simply not offer it. We had this in software (Adobe), and movies/TV shows (Netflix). Companies prefer continuous steady streams of revenue over burst because the numbers will look better for the investors, and easy to show them the solid future of the company.
I won’t be in the “Owns nothing and be happy” camp. Or honestly, rarely have things I do not own.
But for gas you don’t need to worry ownership problem as you can’t reuse gas. Once it is burnt, it’s gone.
Batteries are different because you can recharge it, which brings ownership problem into sight. And unlike gas tank for your grill, which the port is somewhat universal and shape doesn’t matter too much. Car batteries have wear level that affects performamce (range) and are likely designed to fit a car/platform. It isn’t that interchangeable.
No, it’s like paying over and over for the gas tank.
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The model only works if users are forced to subscribe to a battery swapping service for the full life of the vehicle (or there is a large upfront fee to join with a used vehicle). Otherwise it would be too easy for a consumer with a worn out battery to do a one-time swap and get a like-new battery as a cheap alternative to very costly battery repairs. The dumped battery is likely to have very poor range and the battery swap company will need to dispose of it.
That’s like asking who owns a propane tanks for your grill. You own it while you have it.
When you get a new batter, you own the new one, and relinquish ownership of the previous one, paying for the electricity that’s on the new battery. AS LONG AS the battery that you’re relinquishing is substantially identical to the new battery.
That “substantially identical” is up for heavy debate.
Sure. If you’ve abused it in some way so that it doesn’t take or hold charge, then you might have to pay for a replacement battery. But I think there would be an implied warranty when you’re given a replacement, that the replacement was fit for service. And the company might just have to roll the cost or replacing batteries every so often into their electricity pricing models.
In my head the batteries would work somewhat like the electric scooters you can rent around big cities. There would be battery companies that pay stations to stock their batteries. Then EV owners pay for the juice they used, plus a little extra for the wear, plus a little extra to make it worth it for the battery companies when they swap to a new battery. So you’re essentially renting the batteries.
Renault tried leasing the batteries in EV in an effort to lower the initial cost of the car while increasing their tail for future owners. They abandoned it only a few years in as it was a disaster for their used market that got worse the older the car got as nobody wanted the ongoing cost. Only the initial owner saved money, and only if they managed to use PCP finance with a balloon set before Renault realised that the battery leased cars would be worth significantly less.
Renault also did not like that with older cars they would be liable for the battery replacement far sooner than they planned as they (initially) had a higher percentage unusable before they had to do a free replacement vs. a normal battery warranty, made worse as a leased battery has a warranty as long as you are paying the lease.
Renault could repossess the car if you stopped paying the battery lease and refused to buy it out. Its like any car finance that puts a lien or similar on the car, you do not own it till its gone.
Yeah, when I wanted to buy an electric car I look at the used market for the Renault Zoe but I quickly gave up.
The idea of paying a monthly subscription on a used car quickly turned me off and buying the leased battery back from Renault was prohibitively expensive.
That just proofs my point in https://lemmy.ml/comment/11726077
Once they get you on the hook, they can only provide the subscription option, much like how software (Adobe, I’m looking at you) does today. Or have the one-time purchase option be super expensive to lure customers into the subscription model.
Simply because continous revenue is batter then a one-time purchase.
I would guess a swappable battery would be separated from the vehicle, similar to a gas bottle for a grill.
The battery would be rented for a small deposit and on swapping you only pay the energy + service fee.
I guess you could also buy one to own, but then could not swap that.
That’s how it would make sense, at least.
I will take ownership over leasing as a 200 miles range is more than enough for me. But you will see if the leasing model works out, they will only have leasing left for you as that’s a continous money flow. Or have the battery be super expensive to discourage you buy it.
It’s not just that, its what happens if you get a battery from a guy named roger who said he knows what he’s doing and fucked with it?
Battery swapping sounds great, until you put it into a real world scenario.
Battery swapping sounds great, until you put it into a real world scenario.
Government regulation and standardization is the answer.
You know, like fossil fuels also are. For example fuelpumps have to be legally calibrated so that they measure accurately, and there are a myriad of quality standards and ratings regarding what 98 octane or 95 octane or diesel fuel or whatever can contain.
I can already hear a mile away lobbyist paid by the manufactures rubbing their hands arguing standardization “limits innovations” and “slow developments.”
How does this solve the issue of roger fucking with his battery and then you ending up with it during a battery swap? You do realize how many states with counties have no inspections right?
Quality control on batteries that go out to customers, and make the stations legally liable.
For example: I once pumped petrol in my diesel car due to human error by the gas station’s supply company (they put petrol in the diesel tanks). They found out about the error as I was filling up and stopped me halfway, so luckily I had no engine damage, but they had to pay for the tow and to get my tank emptied.
how many states with counties have no inspections
Sounds more like a “your government is shit” problem than a “this scheme can’t work” problem.
As opposed to quality control from the manufacturer, once for the life of the vehicle, before you even buy, and with a long warranty?
…… that already exists?
Quality control on batteries that go out to customers, and make the stations legally liable.
Ah, so you’re wanting to transport tons and tons of batteries back to a centralized facility to be inspected and have testing done?
Sounds more like a “your government is shit” problem than a “this scheme can’t work” problem.
It’s not a gov problem, it’s a logistics issue.
Gas gets to the gas station somehow. Obviously it isn’t the same as transporting batteries back and forth but it’s bad faith to say this is completely unprecedented logistics problem. I am under the impression that battery health could be screened at the swap facility and would require a small subset to be returned to a hub for additional inspection or repair.
Yea gas is a one way trip, and then it’s into the end customer. It’s not an unprecedented logistics problem, it’s just a logistics problem that ends up requiring a ton of more energy. Batteries need to be able to charge way quicker and hold a longer charge, that’s the problem that should be getting worked, not a how to transport battery packs around.
To me, this is the biggest argument against battery swapping.
We have this huge industry for refining, storing, distributing, distributing ending gasoline that we can entirely dismantle with EVs. All that pollution: gone. All that wasted land: gone. All those unnecessary levels of profit-seeking: gone. Now you want to choose a technology that requires rebuilding all that, except two way? You want to force the new technology to conform to old infrastructure ideas?
How can we not prefer the alternative of “just plug it in wherever you are”? How can we not prefer the rare opportunity of simplifying something? How can we not forgo all those unnecessary profit seekers?
Ah, so you’re wanting to transport tons and tons of batteries back to a centralized facility to be inspected and have testing done?
No, that’s just something new you invented to shoot down the idea.
Batteries can have a tamperproof seal so that customers can’t easily mess with it, just like you normally don’t mess with the electricity, gas or water meter in your home. QC and charging can be done on site where you swap, and can mostly be automated. The only thing that needs to be transported back and forth regularly are defective and replacement batteries. Just like gas stations at the end of the day or week need to order replenishment for the fuel they’ve dispensed.
We already do this kind of swapping with other stuff as well: from crates with empty beer bottles and office water cooler bottles to refilling propane and butane bottles.
It’s not a gov problem, it’s a logistics issue.
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The lack of government oversight that you brought up, and which this was in reply to, is literally a government issue. Regulation and inspection works fine in most of the civilized world, the fact that it doesn’t in Backwater USA is no argument.
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Fossil fuel distribution already is a huge logistics issue, we have to dig it up in the middle east, transport it in oil tankers, refine it at some central locations, then distribute it again with tanker trucks to millions of gas stations so that finally you can put it in your car and use it to drive somewhere, but somehow we have been making that work for over a century.
No, that’s just something new you invented to shoot down the idea.
So each swap station is going to have batteries techs that know what the fuck they’re doing, checking on every battery that comes in?
Batteries can have a tamperproof seal so that customers can’t easily mess with it, just like you normally don’t mess with the electricity, gas or water meter in your home.
What world do you live in? People fuck with their houses all the time, its why you get an inspection when you buy a home(even if most inspectors only find the shit on the surface).
QC and charging can be done on site where you swap, and can mostly be automated. The only thing that needs to be transported back and forth regularly are defective and replacement batteries. Just like gas stations at the end of the day or week need to order replenishment for the fuel they’ve dispensed.
Again so you’re going to have ever charge station have basically certified battery engineers that can check out battery systems that come in? Are you also planning on forcing the EV makers into standardized battery packs?
We already do this kind of swapping with other stuff as well: from crates with empty beer bottles and office water cooler bottles to refilling propane and butane bottles.
Cool, when is the last time you saw an empty beer bottle truck catch fire because roger fucked with his miller lite?
- The lack of government oversight that you brought up, and which this was in reply to, is literally a government issue. Regulation and inspection works fine in most of the civilized world, the fact that it doesn’t in Backwater USA is no argument.
Ah so only in good ol EU do you guys not have car crashes and house fires because regulation has solved that shit.
- Fossil fuel distribution already is a huge logistics issue, we have to dig it up in the middle east, transport it in oil tankers, refine it at some central locations, then distribute it again with tanker trucks to millions of gas stations so that finally you can put it in your car and use it to drive somewhere, but somehow we have been making that work for over a century.
Cool, whataboutism got it…the real problem you should be talking about is how quickly you can charge a battery and how long it’ll last on said charge…not let’s re-invent the wheel…
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The charger would have some inspection capability. Maybe not physical integrity of the casing but certainly the voltag and current outputs and connectivity of cells which could would correlate to health.
Ok, roger shows up dumps his shit battery or ticking time bomb and gets a free battery out of it. Do you plan on requiring everyone to show ID and get a face scan?
That is why they make you lease the battery. You cannot swap out your old battery, just the battery you are leasing. Your lease payments include the cost of them replacing batteries.
What stops people from messing with their leased batteries?
With my EV I follow recommended practice to ensure longevity of the battery. I rarely charge it more than halfway as I don’t need to for my regular usage, and I avoid letting it run down entirely. Once you engage in battery swapping, where’s the incentive to take care of it well? After my first swap my brand new excellent condition battery is replaced by who knows what.
Exactly, this is the equivalent of tire swaps…my tires I take care of and rotate and replace when the tread is worn down, the hell do I want someone’s else batteries being in my car that could end up having a short lift or explode on me.
So now we’re tacking on government regulation and certifications, an independent reaction regime? On top of building out a global infrastructure carrying around batteries that each way a ton, supporting robotics to manipulate those batteries, getting everyone to agree to use the same batteries, etc? Compared to “plug it in wherever you are”?
Battery swapping is a cool idea and there may be equipment that needs it, but it would just make personal vehicles more complicated and expensive with little gain
There are already plenty of shady car mechanics named roger who can swindle you out there…
Yea, sure but that doesn’t effect me because I have the chance to know who’s working on my car, you don’t if you habe battery swapping going on.
Not just about “who owns it?” but also how does it work with insurance if something goes terribly wrong and who will bear the responsibility?
When 52% of all trips made are less than 3 miles and less than 2% are over fifty miles, I don’t think battery swapping is something any individual needs on a regular basis.
I could get on board if manufacturers were making $10,000 sub 50 mile vehicles that were compatible with a swap station so you could switch to a larger battery for the weekend. This would have to be a standard adopted by all however, and even before that, they’d have to make small cars. Which they won’t, because we all know they are too busy making trucks and SUVs.
The whole “but what about the one journey a year you make that’s outside the normal battery range?” is such an obvious fossil fuel industry boondoggle. It’s up there with “but what about that one time you had to move a fridge?” when convincing people that a Ford F150 is a normal sized family car.
It’s almost like they knew in the sixties that they were in for some problems and have since been devising ever more complicated methods of disinforming the public in order to maintain their wealth. Does my head in sometimes.
I’m also thinking that way wrt to “we need more fast charging for EVs to work”, I recall that plugging into a standard outlet will get you something like 5-8 km an hour, slow charging is totally acceptable for most people’s usages. If you’re in an area where block heaters are the norm you already have outlets at parking spots, if I could commute to work and plug it in, covers most commutes in a 8 hour day, even those of us who rarely go in and live 70k away I’d be getting most of my range back. For the amount I drive, level 1 charging is more than sufficient.
I think a compact with 2-300 k range would suit me just fine, would cover the odd longer trip and I’ll totally grab a rental for anything longer, like I already do it I need to move a fridge.
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I was looking at the Volt a couple years ago but the only ones around were over 25k. Then I started looking for a BMW i3, but, like so many of the cheaper EVs, there’s not many for sale. It’s a shame these smaller vehicles, even a hybrid, aren’t pumped out the factories left, right, and centre.
It’d be so much safer - and quieter - in the city if smaller cars were more pervasive.
hear hear for small cars
PS: and walkable/cyclable cities
I could get on board if manufacturers were making $10,000 sub 50 mile vehicles that were compatible with a swap station so you could switch to a larger battery for the weekend. This would have to be a standard adopted by all however, and even before that, they’d have to make small cars. Which they won’t, because we all know they are too busy making trucks and SUVs.
they make $10k ev’s with 250 mile ranges that are for sale everywhere except the united states & canada. you can get them in australia or western europe for a 50-75%-ish tariff depending on which country you’re in…
Without knowing any examples of the vehicles that are for sale everywhere except, roughly, half the world, I can’t really say much them. What I can say is that compared to the monstrous subsidies the oil and gas industry recieve, it does seem like those tariffs could be done away with. At least on the face of it, perhaps the issue is more intricate than that but I’m sure you grasp my meaning.
for the united states, it’s actually pretty simple; it’s about stopping chinese control of the auto industry and protecting ford, gm & chrysler from having to innovate. here’s a short video with a high level overview of it.
Do people even need a car for a 3 miles trip? You can cover that on a bike in 15-20 mins at a chill pace… Also, 28% of trips are less than a mile? People can’t walk a mile?
Not speaking for other places, but America is not made for bikes or pedestrians. It is actively hostile to them in the best cases, and filled with explicit murderous intent in others.
Drivers will actually, actively, try to hit you for daring to take to the roads. And you have to take the road because we have sparse or missing pedestrian sidewalks.
I wouldn’t wish biking 3 miles in most American cities on anyone used to a properly designed nation.
Sadly, you are speaking for a great many places. I’ve cycled in most of the countries I’ve visited and it can be relatively dangerous.
If people want to see how to integrate a public transport network with a cycle path network, places like Netherlands and Denmark are leading the way.
Over here in the UK we have one of the most regressive attitudes to sustainable transport in Europe. Our trains don’t work and cycling is barely tolerated.
This is just anecdotal, but as someone who both drives and cycles in the UK, I’d say it’s city dependent. I live in Leeds, go to uni in Leeds and work in Huddersfield. I cycle to uni, cycle to the train station and drive to work (when I can’t get a train for whatever reason). Leeds is getting there, albeit slowly but it’s getting alot better for cyclists. I like the electric bicycle scheme so I can cycle to the station and just leave the bike there. although it shouldn’t be more expensive than getting a bus.
Not everyone is child free and lives where it doesn’t rain
The Dutch do it… Rain or shine (mostly rain with crazy wind) with their cargo/kid bikes.
I am Dutch
So just lazy then?
I live on the Dutch coast and still cycle despite constantly shit weather.
I have 4 kids. Stop acting like a rodent.
Sounds like you’re stressed from all those kids! Have you tried cycling? It’s a great outlet and stress relief
Holland is also flat as fuck
Would be good for hauling large objects
I doubt the average person needs to do that daily over such a short distance.
I think an automated battery swap system would work best for OTR trucking. Pull in, battery packs swapped, off they go. The charge for much larger batteries would take longer, or at least would be better done not attached to a vehicle for maintenance or in case of thermal problems.
There’s a company doing this already. Giant battery sits behind the cab. They drive up, unplug it like a LEGO with a huge robot arm, plunk in a new one and good to go.
I think an automated battery swap system would work best for OTR trucking.
Yes, that and other commercial vehicles that put on a lot of miles in a day, every day.
Not to mention, most of these trucks are very standardized in their dimensions and parts already. This is probably the biggest thing that will hurt small vehicles is picking a subset of standardized dimensions that will fit multiple models.
The example of driving from Paris to Mt St Michel where you have to plan carefully to get to ‘the only supercharger’ east of Paris is a bit stupid. Why not charge at Total, Engie, or even Lidl? I assume Teslas are not exclusively charged at superchargers, which can be pretty slow at 150kW when there are 300kW options as well.
A good and in France rapidly improving charging network is important, swapping batteries sounds nice but brings so many compatibility and standardization issues, not considering ownership/lock-in etc.
I stopped reading the article there.
Either the author is voluntarily misleading or he has no idea of what he is talking about.
Here is the map all the fast charging stations (>100kW) along the way between Paris and the Mont St Michel.
The Tesla model 3 in Europe uses the standard combo CCS plug so it can use all of these stations.
I did not count them but at a first glance the number of charger is higher than “none”
Edit: OK I read the article after all but I really don’t see what problem battery swapping would solve.
I could see a use case for public transport that has to go a specific road and need to run non stop every days but even then I suspect that having overhead cable on a short section to charge the battery while running would be more appropriate than battery swapping.
The article is talking about the lack of charging station but battery swapping just make the problem way way worse. A battery charger is just a parking spot and a high voltage AC - DC transformer connected to the grid. It’s relatively cheap and easy to install, does not take much space and work for all electric cars compared to a battery swapping station that can only work for one specific brand (specific model too ?) need robotics and plenty of storage. Its much harder and expensive to install and you need one charging station per brand. This means less stations overall.
Finally there is the speed of charging, this is true that battery swapping is probably faster than fast charging but honestly I don’t find charging an electric car that inconvenient.
On long highway trips I need to stop around 20 minutes every 2 hours, a 20 minutes break every 2 hours is not that bad, just enough time for a toilet break, a quick coffee before going back on the road.
The cost to install stations would dramatically reduce if you had one stations that could supply 20 parking lots instead of one station for each two lots.
It also shuts up all the complaints about batteries going dead and the cost of replacing them.
I do agree ice vehicles are already very convenient and most people complaining are mostly just parroting oil propoganda, but making them even more convenient isn’t a bad thing.
I don’t think many run their batteries to the ground but it’s nice to know someone can just bring you a spare if you do.
I’m complaining about the battery station model, not about the EV in general.
I have a few points to point out:
- Battery pack recycle is still expensive and complex. It isn’t an engine block you can disassemble, melt, and mold for something else.
- Ownership is a huge problem. This ties tightly to right to repair. Say your car broke down, now you’re almost certainly need to go through the dealer or the manufacture because the battery isn’t yours.
- This impacts the life expectancy of the vehicle. Once the battery model for your car is EOL, you either stuck with the last battery swapped in, or worst you need to return the battery and have a non-functional car.
- Resell value. Battery is one of the most critical component on an EV. You might not able to resell it at a satisfaction price as you don’t have a battery, even it is fitted a leased one as the next owner need to pay the subscription continuously.
Actually, I’m not a fan of ICEV nor EV. ICEV pollutes when they run, EV pollutes when they need to be disassemble and recycle. It is simply not happening in front of your eyes doesn’t mean it is not. We all need to look at the overall carbon footprint (I can’t think of another better word), from manufacturing to the end of life. For EV and its battery, starts from mining rare earth elements.
I’m more on to the Hydrogen Vehicle, especially fuel cells. IMO the development in this low, and small (at least I don’t see much news about it).
Hydrogen is a dead end. The only company left trying to chase that particular dragon is Toyota, and I predict eventually they’ll be forced to admit that it’ll never work en masse for private vehicles. Ordinary consumers can already barely be trusted with gasoline, which is neither under high pressure nor requires industrial grade refrigeration to keep it in liquid form, and is a lot harder to ignite… The delivery systems for hydrogen are extremely complex and must maintain an absolute 0% failure rate or else somebody will either get blown up or frozen to a pump. Gasoline is at least a liquid and behaves predictably when spilled, and doesn’t phase change instantly when it leaves containment. And a mechanical failure in the delivery system can be mitigated by simply shutting off the pump. You poke a hole in a hydrogen filling system and you’re going to have a very interesting time. Current systems have redundancies on top of safety devices on top of redundancies for this reason which makes them fantastically expensive.
Hydrogen also has crap for energy density (around 8 kJ/liter in liquid form, compared to 32 kJ/liter for gasoline) and even if you’re producing it via electrolysis or something is a wildly inefficient way to store and transport energy. If you’re going to use electricity to create and compress hydrogen to transport it and create electricity with it later, it is monumentally more efficient to take the electricity and put it in batteries. So you may as well just to that.
The thing with battery swapping is that it will absolutely require strong government regulation to ensure standardization and fair treatment of owners. Replaceable batteries in consumer devices obviously aren’t a new concept, and before proprietary lithium packs took over everything, every single consumer device was powered by AAA, AA, C, or D batteries which were very well understood by everybody and were – and are – completely interchangeable commodity items that are readily available to this day. That’s the only way it’ll work. Manufacturers will have to be forced to standardize on a set of pack sizes because without oversight they’ll inevitably try to turn everything into a subscription-only walled garden pretty much exactly as you have predicted. But if there is a thing as an equivalent of an AAA vehicle battery (for motorcycles and scooters), AA vehicle battery (for city microcars, NEV’s, golf carts, etc.) and C vehicle battery (full size passenger cars) and D vehicle battery (light trucks) etc., and nobody is allowed to try to make up their own bullshit, then no one will have to give a rat’s ass about battery health, the dealership, lock-in, or anything else. If you buy a used vehicle with a knackered pack in it or your battery gets cacked, you could just bop down to your local AutoZone or whatever and buy a new one. Or push your car to the nearest swap station. You’ll turn in your old one for the core charge. Exactly like how 12v vehicle batteries work now.
We’ll have to get people used to the notion that, yes, these things will be kind of a battery lottery and you may get swapped in a pack that’s in slightly worse condition than your last one if you go around pack-swapping all the time. But you know, the next time you swap you’ll get a different one again. And you can play already this game right now if you want to – just go buy some fuel in a third world country.
I still have faith in hydrogen vehicles. I have read somewhere I forgot that using fuel cell is the better way of using hydrogen, instead of burning it. It does have difficulties but maybe in next 5 yrs scientist and engineers may come up something breakthrough. But if none invest now, that won’t happen in the future.
And about regulation on standard battery, I fully support, but I can already see how those companies lobby and whine about how regulations will “limit innovations” and “slow development.” Then some politicans take some under table deals just like how the petro industary does today.
FYI, there is no “better” way to use hydrogen that will result in extracting more energy from it than it physically contains and can be released via oxidation. This is not a matter of “development” or “breakthroughs.” It is physically impossible. The standard enthalpy change of combustion of hydrogen is 141.83 MJ/kg. Period. That’s it. That’s all you can ever get out of it, provided you achieve perfect efficiency (which currently we don’t). Ongoing research is surely working on getting is closer to 100% efficiency, but it will never get past it. You can’t defy the laws of physics.
Insofar as I am aware all current hydrogen vehicles already use fuel cells to generate electricity and use that to drive electric motors for motive power. No one is burning hydrogen in a combustion engine in vehicular applications. There are some power plants that are doing it, though, mostly as a mechanism for storing and later reusing excess energy generated from other sources. You can go cross-eyed reading up on it here, if you are so inclined.
There is the notion of the “hydrogen economy” floating around, that is the use of hydrogen as an energy storage and carrying medium – not, notably, as a fuel for actual generation of energy – but it’s pretty certain that outside of some limited applications this will always be a worse deal than just taking the energy in the form of electricity and putting it in a wire.
OK. I understand we can’t get more energy out of it. But maybe something without high pressure tank or industrial freezer to keep it in liquid form? I know I’m in a state of denial but I have a gut feeling that EV, at least with lithium batteries, shouldn’t be the way forward.
If hydrogen is really a dead end, maybe solid state batteries that doesn’t be a fire hazard and full charge in 5 minutes? Standardization of EV batteries are the way to go but I can see lots of resistance on the path.
for one specific brand (specific model too ?)
Probably one platform (used for several models, sometimes shared between brands. For instance VW Polo, Audi A1, Seat Ibiza and Skoda Fabia are all based on the same platform).
Unless you have cars with modular battery packs, which do not exist right now.
Tesla drivers are c*nts anyways :p Focus on proper EVs.
I think it’s great to see this happening. I’ve always thought this option makes sense. I still wish the solution was a drone that comes right to you and drops a battery into a port on your roof while you are still driving, but I guess that is going to have to wait.
I want to see someone try.
Not because it’s practical, or because it makes sense. But because it sounds like it makes sense but I’m practice would be so impractical and hard that the solution would be absolutely hilarious.
You’re driving along the freeway at 70 miles an hour, and a jet powered super drone rockets along side the car carrying a 2000 pound brick of lithium and drops it on top of you like a fucking dump truck. The shock crushes the cheap Chinese car like a can of soda and the sudden change in weight sends the drone careening off in to the air at a reasonable percentage of mach 1. The last thing you see on this earth as your brain matter is squeezed out of your eye sockets like toothpaste is a wide eyed driver in the car next to you.
The resulting pile up kills 4 people immediately, and several more later as they get caught in an expanding wave of lithium battery fires that either burn them to death or suck all of the oxygen out of the air.
Did the car get successfully recharged though?
It certainly had more chemical energy added to it, so… yes?
Sounds good. Let’s work on the business plan. ;)
Gotta start somewhere right?
I can see so many issues with what you’re proposing, but hey auto grenade dropping drones have great military application
“Battery Station” vs. “Gas Station” should’ve been a no brainer from day one.
Next best plan should be “electric roads” that are powered by green tech.
Of course it all would be massively expensive. Sadly, it’s clear that the powers that be to protect Earth’s climate do not give a shit.
It’s a no brainier, until you deal with standardizing the battery and attachment mechanisms across many manufacturers. Then figuring out the machines necessary to automate the process of removing the battery and swapping in a new one. Then dealing with people who abuse their battery and bringing them to EOL early. Then deploying all of that nationwide.
Oh, and it limits where you can place the battery. You can’t integrate it into the frame, which has some big advantages in reducing weight.
Conversely, charging stations are relatively easy. You need to standardize the plug, which ain’t nothing, but it’s far easier than an entire battery release mechanism. The charge stations themselves aren’t much more than a transformer, some high voltage electronics, and some controls. Again, not nothing, but way easier than an automated garage for battery replacement.
Charge stations were always going to be able to race way ahead in deployment timelines, and we still don’t have enough of them. If we had focused on battery swap stations, we’d be even further behind.
Highways could totally have power lines overhead…the problem is just finding the best way of getting it to the car safely (I don’t like the trolley-style solution).
Not sure what the “trolley style” is.
My exposure to electric roads are electro-magnetic rails under the road that provide a constant electric field that cars drive over.
Honestly, I think it may be possible to build entire roads with enough crushed metal elements in the asphalt/concrete and a slight low power charge throughout the entire surface would be able to keep any vehicle battery at a steady charge.
But, I’m not a scientist/engineer/electrical specialist, etc …
Trolly style = hooking on to an over-road power line.
Yes, I should’ve known. It was a popular thing in my area with a bus line that stopped just within the past 3 years.
Honestly, I think it may be possible to build entire roads with enough crushed metal elements in the asphalt/concrete and a slight low power charge throughout the entire surface would be able to keep any vehicle battery at a steady charge.
You might be underestimating how much power a car consumes while driving. For example, a Tesla model 3 has an efficiency of about 130 Wh/km in mild weather at highway speeds. Assuming that on the highway you’ll travel 100 km/h, that means you’ll use 130*100 = 13.000 Wh/h, a constant power draw of 13kW. That’s enough to power perhaps 8-12 houses on average.
A km of road could have, let’s say, 200 cars on it (4 lanes, 20m per car). That means you’d need to pump about 2.6 megawatts of power into every kilometer of road to keep them all topped up.
EDIT: fucked up math
And that doesn’t seem to take into account transmission losses. Even the best wireless phone chargers are maybe 70% efficient. This may hit 40% if you’re lucky. So double that figure.
Does using a period in your number not cause confusion? 13.000 vs 13,000. I first read it is 13 since the zeros mean nothing following a period where im from. No shade, just curious.
Apologies. I’m from a country where the meaning of the period and comma is reversed compared to the US, so I did it this way out of habit.
No need to apologize. I didn’t know they were reversed. Do yall do periods for three digits? 1.000.000,00?
Yup, just like that
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There was a scooter sharing company that drove around, swapping the batteries. It went out of business and now there are only the Bird style scooters.
If there were battery swapping stations, I’d definitely by me a bike.
- Book a swap in the app
- arrive in the lineup.
- serves one car at a time like an oil change
- the station has to constantly be charging the used batteries.
Or
Install 4-6 high speed chargers in the same spot and clear more cars faster .
Essentially the swap station is only better if you arrive without a lineup. The swap takes 7-10min and is manned. If you are one or two cars deep waiting you are better to have just found a charger
Why wouldn’t you compare like situations? It appears you chose a rather well set-up charging station vs. a poorly setup swapping station.
I didn’t picture an oil change when I imagined a battery swap station, I am not sure that should be the default or starting point.
neo is the ONLY company doing swap stations, and that is how they work… I also described current, available EVs with available chargers.
True, mass parallel charging can fulfill more peak demand faster, but from the point of view of the user, it would still be good to have the option to fill/exchange the battery quickly.
An EV6 on an capable fast charger can do 10% to 80% in 17 min
They need to make the swap faster / higher throughput or charging is still going to make more sense .
One thing that would speed it up would be if you could just drop the 1-ton battery by gravity (safely, which I understant is hard on the edges of any hooks holding it, maybe they could use a raised floor, which is what they do in NIO) and snap it back on in 30s or less for a total of 2m. The rest is just your usual parking, pulling the gas hose. Maybe make it go-through so you don’t have to manouver into place.
More like install 8 to 12 DCFS at a minimum and some very busy stations have a massive amount of chargers.
No I would not. Chargers work just fine.
My colleague has a NIO car like this, he really likes it and uses the battery swap weekly. To my knowledge they have patented the tech.
If I bought an electric car, I would definitely consider NIO, as this option is great for long trips. In EU they have a couple of swap stations in Germany, but it’s still a long way to go in other countries.
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Was waiting for Nio to make it state-side. Now, not so sure they will be allowed.
Youre going to buy poor QC american made giant electric monstrosities and you’re gonna like it.
Or just save a couple bucks and go to a scrap yard and buy a car with a fucked engine, or no engine at depending how far into the process of being scrapped it is. Then convert it to electric.
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Nah, we already use it:
https://www.nio.com/news/NIO-reaches-30-Power-Swap-Stations-in-Europe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w
We just need to get our heads out of the sand and take these challenges from China seriously in the EU and the US with proper coordinated reindustrialization policies. Tariffs and bans only buy us time.
I know it’s not “apples to apples” but swapping giant forktruck batteries (I assume they were lead-acid) has been done for decades too. I think we did it at Sam’s Club, at least for when the batteries wouldn’t charge.
