• Kidplayer_666@lemm.eeOP
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    1 year ago

    Liberal? They’re as extreme as conservatives who call communism everything they don’t like (cause they call everything they don’t like “fascist”)

    • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      (cause they call everything they don’t like “fascist”)

      Maybe you don’t understand what fascism is.

      Or maybe you do, and you’re a supporter of it.

    • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      I believe the comrade is making a joke about our politics. Not everything we don’t like is fascism, some of it is liberalism. But of course, we all know what bleeds when a liberal gets scratched.

        • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          What exactly are you seeing as pro-russia?

          As communists we’re staunchly anti-NATO and against the US imperialist order. There’s a degree of critical support for the Russian Federations struggle against NATO, but thats not really pro-russia, or at least how we would define being pro-russia.

          Similarly we have critical support for Iran in its struggle against the US led imperial order, and we support when they do things like engaging in trade with AES like Venezuela. Thats not the same as direct support for the theocracy there or all their domestic policies for example

          • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.one
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            1 year ago

            Im no fan of US imperialism, but you all conveniently leave out the alternative to NATO aid in Ukraine right now.

            Without NATO aid, Ukraine will just plainly be taken over by Purine Russia.

            If you think that end result is OK, then I don’t know what to tell you.

            As far as Im concerned, Putins expansion is really helping NATOs by giving them a justification to exist.

            • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              How does communism inform your perspective?

              NATO aid and their not allowing Ukraine to negotiate peace is what is prolonging this war. We aren’t arguing for all of Ukraine to become Russian territory, which hasn’t been the position of the Russian Federation either.

              We would like a negotiated peace that alllows the Donbas republics to leave Ukraine and join the Russian Federation as they’ve voted to do, and a promise for Ukraine to not become part of NATO. That senario is not the alternative you’re talking about, or what you’re implying we support.

              • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.one
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                1 year ago

                We act as if the land wasnt invaded. The quickest way to achieve peace is for Putin yo withdraw. If the Ukrainians push into Russia after a withdraw, then we are having a different conversation.

                You cant claim to believe in peace while in another territory.

                • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  The quickest way to achieve peace is for Putin yo withdraw.

                  And then get couped and have the war continue under the leadership of a right wing hardliner

                  Please look up critiques of great man theory as it seems relevant to your line of thinking on this matter.

                  • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.one
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                    1 year ago

                    So what you are saying is Putin messed up and is in too deep now, no? Seems like the easiest solution would have been to not invade UkrIne

                • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  I don’t even know what this means because it has no grounding in reality.

                  They can’t negotiate peace because they are in a war? How is it possible to resolve this conflict in any realistic way if thats the criteria?

                  • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.one
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                    1 year ago

                    Ideally by standing down. Again, they arent in their own nation.

                    Lets change perspectives here. Lets go back in time to the British colonialist and the native Americans. Are the natives supposed to just do nothing?

                    The victims ought not be expected to let the perpetrators continue to harm them

                • CriticalResist8 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  do you sincerely think Ukraine will be like “it’s all good you were a good sport we’re gonna end the match here, everyone go home” if Russia suddenly decided to up and leave.

                • edge [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Even if Russia were to withdraw to pre-war borders, Ukraine would keep fighting because they insist on taking Crimea which is a large majority Russians who want to be part of Russia.

                  Crimea has never truly been Ukrainian. It was internally transferred to the Ukrainian SSR in the 1950s, but its population was Russian then and stayed Russian the whole time since. But Ukraine insists on having it back.

                  And if they did somehow get it back, they would start ethnically cleansing it of Russians. I hope you understand how that’s a bad thing.

            • PorkrollPosadist [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Without NATO aid, Ukraine will just plainly be taken over by Purine Russia.

              The war would end, a whole lot of people would stop getting killed, and it would open a sliver of space to organize on class lines instead of nationalist ones.

              As it is, it is basically illegal to be a communist or an anarchist in Ukraine, and the country is under martial law with NATO-armed and trained fascist brigades doling out summary justice. Could it get worse? Why should the left advocate for people to die on the hill of a country which arrests communists, dismantles labor unions, and liquidates public infrastructure on internet auctions for foreign investors?

              If you take the most vulgar Anarchist approach, all states are bad, full stop. Political practice doesn’t even operate on that paradigm. You struggle to undermine oppressive hierarchical systems that you come in direct contact with through direct action. If you take the vulgar Leninist approach, the Proletariat should struggle for the overthrow of their Bourgeoisie (this would include the proletariat of Ukraine and Russia respectively, as well as the proletariat of Western countries which see this conflict only as a means to strengthen their military alliances and diplomatic positions). Of course, the situation is too nuanced to apply such a vulgar approach, but that should be the STARTING POINT for anybody who considers themselves anti-capitalists. You should be able to justify any deviation from those bedrock positions.

            • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Im no fan of US imperialism, but you all conveniently leave out the alternative to NATO aid in Ukraine right now.

              Nope it’s mentioned all the time: diplomacy, peace talks, and to make that even possible, establish legitimacy by abiding by your own agreements. The undermining of all of these things has been discussed at length. They don’t really need to be rehashed in our spaces for the benefit of new people that don’t ask questions, though.

              Without NATO aid, Ukraine will just plainly be taken over by Purine Russia.

              lol RF could take over UA any time they wanted to if they took the NATO approach of completely destroying civilian life and essential resources via bombing. Military “aid” to Ukraine just keeps Ukrainian soldiers getting killed en masse, which is characterized by Russia as their compromise version of Denazification.

              As far as Im concerned, Putins expansion is really helping NATOs by giving them a justification to exist

              NATO obviously requires no credible justification to exist. This doesn’t matter.

              • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.one
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                1 year ago

                I find it completely unreasonable to request a peace talk whilst in a neighboring sovereign nation invading. That’s lunacy to think Ukrainians are being the unreasonable ones here in regards to a peace talk.

                • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  I find it completely unreasonable to request a peace talk whilst in a neighboring sovereign nation invading.

                  You have a very funny idea about the realities of war. By your logic most could never end. Wars are resolved through diplomacy or full collapse and loss. Your sociopathic ideas about what is “reasonable” devalues the lives and well-being of Ukrainians living through war.

                  This is liberal “moral victory” nonsense that no serious person believes.

                  That’s lunacy to think Ukrainians are being the unreasonable ones here in regards to a peace talk.

                  Thank you for conceding my point and implicitly retracting the claim I replied to.

                • edge [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  When in the history of ever did a nation willingly withdraw from its enemy before even holding peace talks?

                  Did the US withdraw from Mexico before they started hashing out Guadalupe Hidalgo?

                  Did Germany withdraw from Russia before negotiating Brest-Litovsk?

                  Even the ‘we do not negotiate with terrorists’ US negotiated with the Taliban before leaving Afghanistan.

                  It’s a deal, and withdrawal is one of the terms. You don’t do it before the deal has been made. That gives up all leverage.

                  And Ukraine has already demanded they get absolutely everything, including Crimea. If you want a deal to be everything you want and nothing you don’t, you need an unconditional surrender, not peace talks. Good luck getting Ukrainian tanks into Moscow.

            • ComradeCmdrPiggy [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              What if I told you that in March 2022 the Ukrainians and Russians came this close to closing a deal that would end the war… that is, before the Ukrainians decided to accept effectively unlimited NATO aid in exchange for scrapping said deal?

            • edge [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Without NATO aid, Ukraine will just plainly be taken over by Purine Russia.

              No it wouldn’t. At most they would take the southern half, Novorossiya. The rest they just want a guarantee won’t align with the West.

              • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                Putin has started multiple times that he does not consider Ukraine a legitimate country. If he does not think they should exist, where would the other portion of it go?

            • Flaps [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              As far as Im concerned, Putins expansion is really helping NATOs by giving them a justification to exist.

              You have that backwards and are welcome to learn about the context behind the conflict, just ask

            • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Without NATO aid, Ukraine will just plainly be taken over by Purine Russia

              Ah, I think I’ve found the issue. Here at Hexbear we only support Pyrimidine Russia. We hate fuckin’ cytosine, don’t we folks?

        • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Pointing out propaganda is not being pro-russia. Wanting an end to the American empire is not being pro-russia

          • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.one
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            1 year ago

            I think you are being reductive. One can simultaneously be anti Russia and Anti US imperialism.

            Idk why America being bad means oligarchic Russia is good. There’s no nuance in your ideology. The US generally sucks. They happen to be in the correct side of this conflict. They arent always, but here they are.

            • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              I think you are being reductive. One can simultaneously be anti Russia and Anti US imperialism.

              Yes we agree.

              Idk why America being bad means oligarchic Russia is good.

              So pointing out American lies shouldn’t be an issue, right? Pointing out propaganda shouldn’t be an issue, right?

              There’s no nuance in your ideology.

              I’m not the one boiling this down to good guys and bad guys being on “the right side”.
              I support Russia in this conflict insofar as a defeat of Ukraine would be a defeat of the American empire, which would help usher in a multi-polar world - as we are seeing now - which aids national self-determination (as we are starting to see around the world, from the west African countries throwing off the yoke of France and the IMF, south American countries collaborating and throwing out US stooges, and middle eastern countries seeking peace with each other).

              The US generally sucks. They happen to be in the correct side of this conflict.

              If the US sucks, and the us has been shown to lie, and the us continues to lie, then ask yourself why the us supports Ukraine and to what end. Ask yourself why NATO felt the need to sabotage peace talks. Ask yourself why NATO felt the need to make Zelensky maintain an idea that Ukraine would join NATO, after being told it wouldn’t happen behind closed doors.

              They arent always, but here they are.

              Lmao is this your idea of nuance? “Well all the other times they were shown to be ghouls, but this time where I’m bought in, they’re definitely not”

              • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.one
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                1 year ago

                Are you implying NATO is just the US? That no other NATO nation has sway, and that they are all US puppet?

                This isnt a US vs Russia issue. Its the majority of Europe as well. I tend to trust them as a collective before Id trust Russia.

                Again. I think you are being reductive and turning this into a US bad issue when the US isnt even the most important player here. ID argue Ukraine is the most important player here.

                The US is not the center of the world. Its a very American perspective

                • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Are you implying NATO is just the US? That no other NATO nation has sway, and that they are all US puppet?

                  NATO is and has always been an extension of the US political apparatus. NATO is a void husk of ghouls initially staffed by ex-nazis like Adolph heusinger.
                  NATO is allegedly a defensive alliance but has so far only been involved offensively.
                  When has NATO ever gone against the will of the US?

                  This isnt a US vs Russia issue. Its the majority of Europe as well.

                  The current Ukrainian government was installed by the US, the US president and his predecessor are both embroiled in corruption scandals in Ukraine, and the US is sending an inordinate amount of resources to Ukraine. The US is fighting a proxy war.

                  tend to trust them as a collective before Id trust Russia.

                  Why would you trust what Europe does more than Russia? Why is your skepticism a one way street? I trust neither, I observe the material conditions and the verifiable facts. That is what should lie to grounds for your belief, not vibes about “slavs being untrustworthy” or whatever. Why exactly does it matter how many parts a population is parted up in? Would you trust the Russian federation more if it was The Russian federation and it’s puppet states?
                  Besides - Far more countries are netural/pro-russia than opposed.

                  Again. I think you are being reductive and turning this into a US bad issue when the US isnt even the most important player here.

                  You keep coming back to this statement, this is now the third time I argue it. As before I do not think it is a question of “us bad”, however it is striking to me that you 1. Part this up into “good” and “bad” sides 2. Insist you’re on the “good” side 3. Discount any notion of nuance as wanting to make this about the us.
                  Seeing as how you keep returning to this way of dismissing me and seeing how you choose to avoid answering my questions It is clear you are not actually interested in a good faith discussion.

                  America centric.

                  As I’ve clearly illustrated it is about the US. You refusing to engage with this point does not make it less true.

                  Edit: you keep speaking of nuance, yet I see none from you. You reduce this to a question of right and wrong, good and bad, and then declare “were on the good side”. How is this nuanced? How is it nuanced to complain about added context? The fact that I am unwilling to mindlessly go “putler bad, zlava Zelensky” somehow makes me the unnuanced one? The fact that I think questions of NATO encroachment, breaches of treaties and economic interests are relevant to the discussion is somehow unnuanced?
                  Your willingness to reduce it all to “invasion wrong, all other doesn’t matter” is somehow nuanced? Please do some self-crit.

    • American_Badass [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      This is essentially what I used to think as well, until I spent more time there. There’s some stock phrases busted out, and some users probably leave it at that and don’t engage beyond it. However, they genuinely have a deeper framework for an analysis of the world than what you’re going to see from conservatives.

      Basically as part of their extremely liberal ideology, they analyze things through a materialist lens, even the non-marxist liberals there, and through that there is a lot of seeking out of what material causes and contradictions have lead to where we are which can be really neat.

      There is probably some disagreement over what is fascist, what’s not, blah blah. But it’s really not as simple as “what I don’t like is fascism”.

    • NoSuchNarwhal@midwest.social
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      1 year ago

      Eh, it’s a lot like reddit.

      Two thirds of the rabid ones here are keyboard socialists. They type a good game, know all the stock phrases, but when it comes to actually doing shit, well, touching grass is scary.

      They stay inside and rant and rave about how things SHOULD be while we are out there actually making the incremental changes to try to bring it about.

      Then they post and pat themselves on the back for saying we’re not doing enough.

      It’s very clear that this is every bit the senseless, thoughtless, reactionary, pathetic echo chamber that t_d was, just with red flags instead of red hats.

      Thank you all for helping me to realize that so quickly.

      • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        They stay inside and rant and rave about how things SHOULD be while we are out there actually making the incremental changes to try to bring it about.

        Incremental changes like allowing abortion bans, trans bans, the cost of living to skyrocket, drone striking workers around the world, doing nothing about the climate, allowing millions of avoidable covid deaths for the sake of the rich… Oh and presiding over the restoration of child labour? Those incremental changes? Anything I missed?

        You’re useless. You are projecting enormously when you say we socialists only talk when literally everything is going backwards even when you’re in power.

        What do you even do anyway? Are you organising? Or do you just vote every few years and act like that means you do something? We organise.

          • Flaps [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            Me personally, I teach and make my students aware of the dictatorship of capital, imperialism, the profite motive… Basically marxism-leninism 101 on a introductionary level.

            Other than that, I’m active in the teachers union and volunteer in the local chapter of the Marxist leninist party tog et local projects of the ground, like extending the public transport network, social housing, and most important of all, talking with people about their problems, the rise of fascism where I live and how to counter it, as well as the current neoliberal line of thought in both local and federale government.

            What have you done?

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        while we are out there actually making the incremental changes to try to bring it about.

        lmao most of the activism by liberals here is voting every 2 - 4 years and posting, don’t kid yourself. Just keep carrying water for an unrepentant segregationist and telling yourself that the incremental steps you are supporting are towards progress and not a third world war.

      • AssortedBiscuits [they/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        They stay inside and rant and rave about how things SHOULD be while we are out there actually making the incremental changes to try to bring it about.

        Phonebanking for Biden doesn’t count as doing shit btw

        • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Incremental change doesn’t work, but if it did we don’t have time for it with the climate as it is, but if we did I’d still rather change something quick so we can stop people from dying in poverty and starvation.