And it has all kinds of implications and context and shit.

How the fuck am I supposed to tell what’s just people doing things at random and what’s a part of all-singing-all-dancing-shit-show the neurotypicals call “social norms”? Down with NTs.

Honestly while it’s really fucking annoying that refusal to participate could result in some silly neuronormo interpreting a completely innocuous action as an offense, and it can cut you off from social shit, I think it’s basically the only way. The same button never does the same thing twice. Screeching rn.

  • Acute_Engles [he/him, any]@hexbear.net
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    2 months ago

    Might I ask which pointless social norm prompted this? I’m pretty good at helping my wife who’s autistic navigate them.

    My ADHD ass understands that I’m breaking the social norm but reaaallly needed to say something lol

  • the_itsb [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    2 months ago

    mfw I found out that “are you hungry” actually means “will you eat with me” and “what’re you doing this weekend” means “would you like to make plans?” 🤦

    these are things I learned in the last 12 months – I just turned 42

    pretty much all the time, it feels like everyone got a memo that I missed

    • Acute_Engles [he/him, any]@hexbear.net
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      Once again this comes down to allistic people being afraid to be honest or vulnerable. If i ask you to go for dinner and you say no i have all the bad feelings of rejection and shame. If i say “are you hungry?” And you say not really i can still continue as if i wasn’t rejected.

      It used to be an innuendo to ask a person “would you like to see my etchings(drawings)?” I remember a teacher of mine finding old newspaper comics that reinforced this

    • ashinadash [she/her]@hexbear.netOP
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      I often ask my wife “are you hungry” and then we both have a discussion about both our hunger levels and actual willingness to eat, lmao

      We really do need a Gayroller-2000 style emote for neurotypicals.

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          madeline-smug That’s pretty cool actually, we arrived at the optimal solution individually. Convergent Neurodiverse Evolution!!

          Ikr, imagine having to ask weirdo questions instead of just saying “Hey wanna get food with me?” or something? Common neurotypical L toriel-glare

      • Gorb [they/them]@hexbear.net
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        But this makes sense because i want to know other people’s hunger levels to make a decision on what to do about it. The followup question is usually about what kind of food and when and coming to a consensus on what eataging will satisfy our differing hunger levels.

        If I’m asking a rando colleague out to lunch my question literally just is. “Pub?” And i get a yay or nay

    • Duży Szef [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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      HOW MANY MORE COMRADES HERE ARE OLD ENOUGH TO BE MY PARENTS :kitty-cri-screm:

      spoiler

      You’re cool, I love you for being cooler than my dad. It sucks my dad isn’t as cool :sadness:

    • BountifulEggnog [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      I found out that “are you hungry” actually means “will you eat with me”

      Oh I just realized this one too, a few seconds ago. I wonder how many times I’ve said not really when I should have said yes??

        • magi [null/void]@hexbear.net
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          How many people were flirting with us or just trying to be friends with us, and we were totally oblivious??

          I would imagine quite a bit, can be hard to tell with NT people, though I generally can pick up quite a bit though I have had quite a few people just randomly ask me out or what not in the past so they can misread me being interested in them makima-think

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            misread me being interested in them

            oh yeah 🤦

            took me way too long to figure out that people were reading my natural cheer and enthusiasm as romantic interest instead of just the general interest I intended

            • magi [null/void]@hexbear.net
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              Yeah I get that a lot also funny because I’m ace and just my natural way of talking can be misread as flirtation or just because I’d listen to people talk about stuff lol people are weird

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            One of my weirder experiences in my college years was walking home from one of my retail jobs, one that was unfortunately close to a “scene kid” hangout where I found the squealing screaming valley girls loitering around insufferably loud and I hated having to clean up the restroom after they regularly trashed it, often ten at a time… and there they were, rolling up and honking and squealing at me. ralsei-startled

            And they offered me a ride down the road where I was going. I accepted, squeezing myself into a car packed with scene girls. ralsei-splat

            They seemed confused that I just sat there, annoyed, but glad to get off my feet for a while. Did they expect me to paw at them or something? I found them annoying, not hot, especially because I was some years older than any of them and the way they carried themselves was gratingly immature. ralsei-upset

            My lack of interest in them seemed to get them excited, like, I was forbidden fruit or something. Made me more uncomfortable and I politely took my leave once the car went far enough. kitsuralsei

            They started being nicer to me from then on, even trashing the restroom less while still loitering. ralsei-wut

            • magi [null/void]@hexbear.net
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              Did they expect me to paw at them or something?

              I wouldn’t know, maybe they expected something to happen but lbecause you didn’t do anything maybe they were thankful.

              I’d have been the same, I tend to shut down if there is a lot of people. Like I’ll only really talk when spoken to so verbally I would be quiet and it would be misread as there something wrong lol. Depending on the people I would typically sit and happily listen to what goes on or listen to a radio or something if they were annoying lol I’m generally polite regardless.

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          God this one happened to me and I only realized the fumble I’d made like two years after the fact 'cause she was like. The homie, we’d often take our breaks and hit the smoke pit at the same time, one time when she’d gone back home for a holiday, she actually brought me back a jar of apple pie moonshine because I’d mentioned never knowing shiners who flavored their stuff-- I just thought she was one of the most considerate besties I’d ever had.

          Never mind the fact that I know what tattoos she has and exactly where they are, I just thought she was the homie. Been kickin’ myself ever since.

    • Moonworm [any]@hexbear.net
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      People ask this because it’s an invitation to eat with someone without the respondant having to admit that they are would like to be fed, which could be consisdered as implying that their host or whatever is being negligent to the needs of their guest. It is a little silly. But, and I am a ND person who has learned a lot of this by trial and error, there are deep instinctual behaviors that these rituals are about. I’m not here to say whether or not any of this is good or not, but especially the rules about hospitality strike me as things that got ingrained into culture in order to make common uncomfortable situations more reliable by the means of rituals that people follow or don’t, indicating whether or not they’re someone who is going to play their prescribed role - this is maybe why there are often many ritual refusals and acceptances. It’s a way to play-act giving someone something that historically might have been precious and if they don’t play along, you can weed out people who are likely to take advantage of you. It’s imperfect of course and not considerant of neuroatypical people, but it just kind of had to work well enough to keep going.

      It is definitely frustrating to not know ettiquette and I often feel like throwing all of it out in favor of a more direct system. Sometimes I do! But for the rest of the time, I find that ettiquette manuals are super helpful, especially when they explain the reasoning behind otherwise inscrutable rituals.

    • Barx [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      “what’re you doing this weekend” means “would you like to make plans?” 🤦

      Bad news: sometimes this is just small talk and the only way to tell the difference is tone of voice and context.

    • Jenniferrr [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      Wow I’m allistic and I didn’t even realize those two haha. I mean, if I ask “are you hungry” and the answer is no, I’ll just be like “well do you wanna come with me to get food” if that’s what I’m asking lol

  • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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    You should do what I do and assume that everything everyone does has some kind of hidden meaning and spend hours analyzing it.

    👍

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    Here in Burgerland, the most annoyingly common and brief version of this I’ve seen:

    grillman “How’re you doing?”

    ralsei-wave actually describe how I’m doing instead of saying “how’re you doing?” back

    grill-broke

    kitsuralsei

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      I don’t tell people how I am, usually just say good, or a brief not great, they don’t generally want to hear so I don’t give that information

    • Gorb [they/them]@hexbear.net
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      This was like the first NT social cue i learned and know it very well and have to do it almost daily and I still fuck it up constantly. My brain automatically always wants to answer it literally it takes so much mental overriding to not do that but the “correct” answer always comes out stilted then i forget to ask it back

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        I have a weird problem where I often know (from experience) what the expected cue probably is, but I often can’t bring myself to perform it when prompted by social pressure. It’s like a laughtrack in a very unfunny sitcom: the cue is to laugh, and I refuse.

        • Gorb [they/them]@hexbear.net
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          Internally i know what i am supposed to do but externally I’m now stunlocked while my brain cycles through 500 dialogue options and then i end up saying something really out of pocket and weirding people out. I don’t care so much anymore but it made my 20’s unlivable

  • Wertheimer [any]@hexbear.net
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    I just learned this Persian word:

    In the rules of hospitality, taarof requires a host to offer anything a guest might want, and a guest is equally obliged to refuse it. This ritual may repeat itself several times (usually three times) before the host and guest finally determine whether the host’s offer and the guest’s refusal are genuine, or simply a show of politeness.

    The host is then expected to say one should not do taarof (“ta’arof nakon” - similar to “don’t be polite!”) for which the appropriate response would be to say “no” two or three times and then pretend to cave in to the host’s insistence and pile on the food.

    I suspect every culture has examples of this (we can find it everywhere from The Water Margin to Curb Your Enthusiasm), but it’s nice to have a word for one of these neurotypical song-and-dance routines that even the neurotypicals haven’t mastered.

    • SuperZutsuki [they/them]@hexbear.net
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      I hate this kind of shit so much. It reminds me of trying to leave family gatherings and getting stuck saying goodbye to people for an hour. Leave the theatrics for the stage and screen, I just want to say how I feel in the moment.

      • Wertheimer [any]@hexbear.net
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        Act I: Desperately trying to avoid being hugged

        Act II: Explaining and apologizing for your ARFID for the millionth time as they try to feed you dubious regional cuisine

        Act III: Desperately trying to navigate goodbyes

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      I get why such rituals exist, but even when I know them I feel too coerced to actually humor them unless it means my life or livelihood.

      It’s also why I reject the “bro code” in whatever sloppy form that brobros try to throw at me. Fuck the brocode, fuck the “man card,” isn’t self-confidence and doing things your own way supposed to be “manly” anyway?

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    I feel like all social norms boil down to “Why do people do this?”

    “Because.”

    And NT people just go along with the norms that are forced on them, never questioning why things are the way they are. I always get hung up on the myriad possible meanings of everything that is said and done. For me, nothing has a set meaning and everything must be thoroughly analysed with the context, tone, events leading up to it, etc. I know NT people don’t think this way and just go through the motions but that’s how I instinctively approach social situations and it’s hard to just follow the unspoken NT rules, even when I know them.

    I don’t even think NT people like doing most of the normal routine but they’re too compliant to rock the boat.

    • ashinadash [she/her]@hexbear.netOP
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      I think it’s MORE CONFUSING because a few make sense, but most do not. It’s not even consistent what ones make sense goddamnit, neurotypicals are such fuckers…

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      I had to disown most of my biological family over time because way too much chuddy and horrid shit was normalized to them and I never stopped asking questions or challenging those norms.

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    Honestly just speaking for myself as an allistic person i treat interactions with NT people as PvP. It’s a fundamentally dishonest environment where at best most people don’t care at all about you and just want to keep the day going without conflict but at worst people use the oversharing and the failure to follow norms as a way to fuck with people.

    If i don’t know the person or have a good read on them, I’m worried they might be a narcissist just looking for an angle. This is probably trauma from my momma but hey

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      Honestly just speaking for myself as an allistic person i treat interactions with NT people as PvP. It’s a fundamentally dishonest environment where at best most people don’t care at all about you and just want to keep the day going without conflict but at worst people use the oversharing and the failure to follow norms as a way to fuck with people.

      Social submarine warfare, kind of. All the pinging and evasion and trying not to get depth charged.

    • Gorb [they/them]@hexbear.net
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      i treat interactions with NT people as PvP.

      Probably the most enlightening thing I’ve heard. It really is like that isn’t it

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    Why do people have to say “bless you” when someone sneezes? Surely even people who believe in souls don’t still think your soul escapes when you sneeze? Why do people even have to comment on normal bodily functions at all? Why is it rude if I don’t respond to people responding to me making an ordinary, involuntary bodily noise??? AHHHHHHHHHH

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    I gave up on that shit long ago, I just don’t care. My mom always gives me flack for it, because I’m either loud, or weird, or “inappropriate”. Fuck you. I’m going to be direct as fuck or joke about your NT “politeness”. Either open yourself up or I’m going to bully you for being a cowardly fake. Do trauma dump, do tell me how actually are you and not that “fine” shit, be forth and honest with me, don’t interrupt a liar with “Um, excuse me good sir. It seems your trousers are alight.” but with your favorite edition of animal feces (In Poland we say “Gówno prawda” or “Pierdolisz”). I had enough of these social cues and I’ll aggressively fight them and struggle against them. I’m not tolerant of them.

    I’m polite in my own ways, ways NTs consider “impolite”. Well then they don’t fucking know impolite.

  • joel@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    Find yourself some similarly ND friends who you can be yourself with. There’s probably clubs around

  • Gorb [they/them]@hexbear.net
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    Completely destroyed my own sanity by memorising a complex set of rules and over analysing everything to the point of mental exhaustion only to still get it wrong or be left in such an ambiguous state I can never know the true answer.

    The same button never does the same thing twice.

    I remember years ago wondering why interaction wasn’t deterministic and asking over and over “what is wrong with me” practically to the brink of suicide. Didn’t actually figure out I was autistic until recently. Honestly the only thing that helped was becoming racist to NT’s and masking only enough to basic interactions and work related shit. I only have 1 NT friend but he’s built different and genuinely tries his best to understand me in a way that he can be accommodating to my needs.

    I also had a friend who would confuse me with subtext i never understood knowing it confused me then would call me an idiot for not understanding and i just let them do this to me for years.

    • ashinadash [she/her]@hexbear.netOP
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      Grats on the autism discovery!

      the only thing that helped was becoming racist to NT’s and masking only enough to basic interactions

      waow-based Uncritical support to your NT friend as well, very cool. I tried the memorisation shit and had to ditch it as well.

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    I actually don’t mind the arbitrary rules that make no fucking sense because most of my rituals themselves are also completely arbitrary that also make no fucking sense if I try to explain it to other people. Even NTs find rituals comforting I guess. I used to despise their arbitrary rules, but now I’m mostly amused by it. For example, NTs respond really well to you saying “bless you” when they’re sneezing for some reason. Two simple words means you care a lot about their wellbeing apparently.

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    2 months ago

    Yo, I can just say, chill. Other people, including NTs, are not important enough to get upset about. Also, sure, interactions are not understandable for you, but they are to them. Who really is “right” then? It doesn’t matter. You just gotta accept the reality of it and do the best with it.

    • ashinadash [she/her]@hexbear.netOP
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      I’m right generally, fuck NTs for their utterly incomprehensible social rituals with no logical basis at all. pathetic

      In this specific case though I’m not hating on anyone, it just bugs me intensely that A) I might be sending signals to people without even knowing it, B) I can’t perceive things enough to interact. I do really like people actually, or else I wouldn’t spend so much time yapping online =) and fwiw I usually do try not to worry about it.

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        Just interpreted the “screeching rn” as you being actually upset. If that’s not the case, that’s good :)

        Idk, I experience A+B too, but I just don’t really make them my problem. If someone misunderstands something, I just ignore it unless it’s something really important, and there are rarely really important things.

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          Well it does bug me when I get alerted to shit like that plays into REJECTION SENSITIVITY omori-manic oh boy!!! Same as not making them my problem, that works great and it’s fine for me until they cause a scene about it for whatever reason susie-heh

          • Azzu@lemm.ee
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            Yep, rejection sucks. Until you understand that they’re the problem, not you, then “rejection” is just a good filter for yourself. They’re filtering themselves out so you don’t have to deal with their shittiness.

            All the more when they cause a scene. I usually just walk away. Idk about you, how old you are, which social situation you’re in, but it’s interesting how much you can just walk away from that you never thought you could. Most of the time they either respect you more or don’t try their shit anymore because they know it doesn’t work on you.

            Anyway, I wish you lots of happiness and good interactions instead :)