• fireshell@lemmy.ml
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    3 hours ago

    it’s a pity that politics is penetrating more and more into open source and FOSS.

    recently support for Russian cloud providers was cut out of opentofu. https://github.com/opentofu/registry/pull/824

    now this. this is, of course, natural the core and many components of modern distributions have not been free in terms of decision-making for a long time and are under the influence of large companies, which in turn are under the influence of the USA.

    • 9point6@lemmy.world
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      It’s a fact of life that politics permeates everything, nothing is in isolation of the political climate it exists within.

      The state of the world today is a function of the politics that got us here, a big change in world politics can have dramatic and far reaching effects.

      A healthy global FOSS culture requires collaborative politics to be the flavour of the day—which is unfortunately not the case in a lot of countries currently.

  • BobGnarley@lemm.ee
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    Dude, WHAT. This is totally against what Linux and Open source in general stand for.

    I don’t support the thing that I’m sure was their reason for this but I definitely don’t support banning someone from contributing to an open system solely off nationality.

    So what eventually only the “good guys” can contribute to and use open source software? Who exactly decides who the “good guys” are in this scenario? USA? China?

    The implications of what this can cause in the future for potentially all of the open source community is absolutely sad. We should welcome all our fellow human beings to contributing to open source.

    • Bobby Turkalino@lemmy.yachts
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      Yeah, being from Russia is a lot different from being associated with the Russian government. If the maintainers are in the latter, then yeah fuck em, but if they live in Russia with no realistic way of getting out and they’re just trying to live a normal life removed from the bullshit and write code as an intellectual escape? And you take that away from them? Precisely how you radicalize people

      • Vincent@feddit.nl
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        26 minutes ago

        …and we don’t know whether they’re the former or the latter, no? So maybe a little early to get outraged?

    • digdilem@lemmy.ml
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      3 hours ago

      As far as I can read from that, they’re still maintainers, just have had their credit removed from the contributors page, no?

      Still a strange thing to do and I look forwards to an explanation.

    • Norah - She/They@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      Reminds me of a comment the other day on a post about Ventoy. Whatever the situation there is, which definitely needs clarification still, the person was saying that you shouldn’t trust it at all because the maintainer is Chinese, even though he has emigrated away. Because the CCP will be able to leverage his family still there to force him to create a backdoor.

      That’s just thinly veiled racism in my opinion.

      • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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        That’s plain racism honestly.

        I knew a (asian) guy who was working for a government contractor serving the US military. The racism is very serious to say the least. He got framed when something went down and was almost tried with treason. (that carries the death penalty) The authorities hit him with questions about his loyalty to the US for 5 hours even though he grew up in the US and so did his parents.

      • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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        it’s straight up illegal for the Linux foundation to deal with Russians.

        [Citation needed]

          • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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            5 hours ago

            I gotta say, that seems likely. Not sanctions in a direct way, but indirectly through funding or other assistance.

            • leisesprecher@feddit.org
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              4 hours ago

              Exactly. But mods here are too butthurt to accept that and rather delete my comments, so they can live in their delusions - which was my point

  • JTskulk@lemmy.world
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    6 hours ago

    My first thought is that this was to make Linux palatable to western regulations, like how companies can’t use Kaspersky anymore. Stupid if I’m right because it’s not like the fsb is going to sneak spyware into Linux.

  • pastermil@sh.itjust.works
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    7 hours ago

    I’m definitely all for Ukraine winning, but this is bullshit, basically the red scare all over again (but for tech).

  • Ferrous@lemmy.ml
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    10 hours ago

    Couldn’t think of a more lemmy thread topic than one involving both Russian geopolitics and linux.

    • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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      6 hours ago

      Couldn’t think of a more lemmy thread topic than one involving both Russian geopolitics and linux.

      part of me is sad that there aren’t many .worlders defending blocking those evil tankies. lol

  • penquin@lemm.ee
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    8 hours ago

    Gotta have them “various compliance requirements”, man, gotta have’em. Don’t ask me what they are, but damnit, gotta have’em.

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    11 hours ago

    Hello Internet commenters. Please remember that there’s no rule that says you need to tell us all your gut reaction to this if you know absolutely nothing about the situation.

    • Kajika@lemmy.ml
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      9 hours ago

      knowing nothing about the situation is indeed the problem. if only this process was more transparent…

      • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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        7 hours ago

        Being Russian => banned from doing business with the rest of the world

        That’s pretty straight forward to me.

        • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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          Western chauvinism:

          the imperial core == the rest of the world

          You may not have noticed that most of the world is ignoring the international rules-based order’s sanctions. And not only almost all of the Global South, which represents ~85% of the world’s people and the bulk of the world’s production* and natural resources. Even many Global North countries are skirting their own sanctions to trade with Russia.

          The Global North is largely sanctioning itself, and Europe is paying a very high price for it. In particular high energy prices, which is eroding their industrial base even more.


          *Since the Global North in its infinite wisdom de-industrialized itself.

          • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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            The almost the entire world is against Russia at this point. And I don’t see China coming to Russia’s aid any time soon.

            • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              6 hours ago

              You’re just making it worse 😂 You really have no idea what’s going on in the real world outside of the imperial core, and you’re really sure you do.

              • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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                5 hours ago

                You can look up the UN vote. 141 counties voted for the movement to have Russia withdraw from Ukraine. 5 were against it and 35 abstained.

                • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                  Sure, but that vote hasn’t actually done anything, and countries continue to trade with Russia. And the Global South countries haven’t curtailed their relations with Russia one whit. In fact some are building even deeper ties with Russia. They’re building an alternative system to SWIFT, they’re trading in each others’ currencies to avoid the dollar, and they’re making plans for some kind of BANCOR-like currency. The BRICS summit is happening right now, hosted by Russia.

    • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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      7 hours ago

      I have seen pictures of Linus Torvads so I feel that I am uniquely qualified to explain whats going on. Let me break it down for you.

      The Linux Kernel is meeting compliance requirements by removing Russian maintainers.

      Thank you all and have a good night.

      • BobGnarley@lemm.ee
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        The problem is they aren’t even saying what those requirements are even after numerous inquiries about it.

        Don’t you think its wrong to ban someone only because of their nationality? I mean for real man. Every country in the world has done some fucked up shit but open source software is supposed to go beyond politics and ideologies.

        They weren’t doing anything malicious it was wrong to remove them.

  • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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    11 hours ago

    This is a shame, I always thought Linux was supposed to be an International collaboration, hate to see it caught up in this bullshit political agenda.

    • secret300@lemmy.sdf.org
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      I agree to this. I was literally just in the shower thinking how Linux, the space station, and the Olympics are the only times we as humans come together to collaborate

        • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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          @JWBananas @secret300 Yea you know the funny thing about that, CFC’s are heavy and tend to sink to the ground if not propelled into the stratosphere by rockets, say like the old Space Shuttle with it’s solid chlorine oxidizer boosters, or the various military missiles which mostly have been converted to liquid hydrogen and oxygen engines. But nah we got to spend $3k to replace our A/C because it contains CFC’s that never would have made it up into the atmosphere anyway because of you know, physics, little things like gravity, so the military can avoid blame.

      • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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        7 hours ago

        @secret300 The project to discover elements 119 and 120 which previously were a US/Russia collaboration also put on hold. All of humanity moves backwards when we fight, nothing is gained.

    • Midnight@slrpnk.net
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      11 hours ago

      Political agenda is a funny euphemism for imperialist invasion and genocide.

      • BobGnarley@lemm.ee
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        6 hours ago

        I totally think them invading Ukraine is fucked up too but I also think the Israel situation is messed up too and would you be against someone maintaining code just because they are from Israel?

        That would be wrong. Linux is supposed to be about more than political alignments its supposed to be a collaborative effort its always been about that.

        This is wrong and its super wrong they don’t tell anyone what compliance they are following or who issued it to them which is also supposed to be against what open source is about.

      • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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        11 hours ago

        @Midnight If Russia were the only one involved, and if weren’t provoked by outside powers like say, oh, the United States, yea I could agree with you but my knowledge of history precludes my accepting that explanation.

        • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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          9 hours ago

          Reporter: [REDACTED]
          Reason: blatant russian nazi acct

          You see the Russians are the real Nazis, not the Banderites who attacked Eastern Ukrainians for the decade before this war started.

          • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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            9 hours ago

            @davel If the world were so simple then those with single digit IQ’s and no real knowledge of historical fact would be able to understand it, unfortunately it is not.

            • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              They’re not dumb; usually it’s that they live in the bubble of Western propaganda, while simultaneously believing that they haven’t been propagandized their whole lives.

              People not only don’t know what’s happening to them, they don’t even know that they don’t know. — Noam Chomsky

              And really, who even has the time and energy to know? It’s actually a lot of work, and we live under neoliberalism, where most of us are just trying to keep our heads above water. Plus, there’s no social or financial upside to bucking the hegemonic viewpoint.

              • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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                9 hours ago

                @davel Everyone has their own perspective but I think most people here are trying to greatly over simply a complex situation with and Noam Chomsky offers only yet another perspective and I disagree with him on the issue of world government or extinction. I don’t think world government on a large scale, particularly the way it is now with no real citizenship representation, is particularly desirable.

                • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                  8 hours ago

                  We’re going a bit off in the weeds here 😂 but yes, Chomsky is what we Marxists call a “radical recuperator,” or a member of the “compatible left.” He’s done useful work, but ultimately he steers people back to the status quo.

                  Noam Chomsky and the Compatible Left: I, II, III, IV

    • theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
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      Does invading your neighbor count as international collaboration? Not that all Russian people can be held directly responsible for the actions of their government.

      • communism@lemmy.ml
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        Aside from the fact that it’s pretty insane to suggest to kick someone off a project for no reason other than their nationality (the article doesn’t say any of these maintainers supported the invasion or had any ties with the government), even if these people actively supported the government, as far as kernel development is concerned… I don’t really care? If their contributions are good then I want their patches to be merged. Tor was made by the US government, which I in no way condone, but I still use Tor.

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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        9 hours ago

        You do realize that the US has invaded far more countries than Russia has, do burgerlanders have no self awareness at all?

        • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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          @yogthos @theunknownmuncher I am in the US and I realize this. There was a funny meme a while back about look how aggressive Russia is, they put their country all around our military bases. Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in that. What other country has military bases throughout the world?

        • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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          Russia literally invaded everyone around them. Look at all the former USSR counties.

          The US has been involved in a lot of places but that’s not a justification for Russia attacking its neighborhood.

          • azuth@sh.itjust.works
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            2 hours ago

            Does Russia invading Ukraine justify the US invading Iraq?

            Though we are discussing individuals here, should we ban Americans in projects to maintain moral integrity?

            BTW are you referring to historical (pre 1990) expansion as well? Because an American really shouldn’t want to go there.

          • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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            27 million Soviets died liberating these people from the Nazis, and this is the thanks they get.

      • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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        @theunknownmuncher The US has been involved in probably 300 regime changes throughout the world, has invaded many countries, including those that we were not affiliated with. Russia invades a neighboring country when we install a leader that is going to allow us to put missiles on their border. I really hate to see political hegemony get in the way of a good collaborative effort, we all suffer for it if we allow this.

        • theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
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          The US has been involved in probably 300 regime changes throughout the world, has invaded many countries, including those that we were not affiliated with.

          Absolutely fair point. I agree with you on this portion of your comment.

          • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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            @theunknownmuncher And I could give countless other examples of other countries. I don’t agree with the war, but I also know if we hadn’t installed Zelenskyy and if the United States had honored our promise to Russia not to extend NATO past East Germany, then it would not have happened. So I understand that it is hardly one sided on Russias part. If we didn’t fund Ukraine, if we didn’t offer them membership in NATO, none of this would have happened. And I’ll add if the Ukraine and Russia did not have large oil reserves and some other precious minerals, the United States would be a lot less interested in them. But that’s all in the past. Now, you and I can disagree with each other and we can disagree with what our governments do, but if we want to build a better world it has to happen through the cooperative efforts of citizens NOT governments because the latter just historically a lot less likely to happen. So I can’t see this move as at all productive towards ending this particular war or world peace in general, I see it as quite the opposite.

        • beleza pura@lemmy.eco.br
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          10 hours ago

          there is simply no meaningful response to this

          no matter whether you think russia is justified in invading ukraine or not, if russians get banned from the kernel bc russia invaded ukraine, yankees have to get the boot as well

              • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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                @bunitor That would be my take. My take is that as individuals we are were international cooperation needs to begin, it isn’t going to happen with our governments, at least it never has historically.

          • theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
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            10 hours ago

            if russians get banned from the kernel bc russia invaded ukraine

            You should read the article because this is not a thing that has occurred, at least not yet.

            • beleza pura@lemmy.eco.br
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              my understanding was that the kernel didn’t publicly state any specific reason, but “complying to sanctions” semms like a safe bet to me

              in any case, whatever the reason, this removal is unfortunate and uncalled for

      • lily33@lemm.ee
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        I’m sure removing these maintainers would be of great help to the Ukrainian war effort…

        More seriously: We need to help Ukraine more. But this doesn’t do that. It just hurts a bunch of people (both the maintainers, and the people using their code) for no benefit whatsoever.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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          The biggest help the west could’ve done for Ukraine was to fuck off when the Istanbul negotiations were happening two months into the war.

        • theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
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          100% agree with you! Like I said, I don’t think we can hold all Russian people directly responsible for the actions of their government.

          I wish for an ideal world where politics could stay out of Linux, but this is extremely tricky and cannot be treated black and white. Labeling things as “political” and then crying to keep “politics” out of things is often used as a weapon for exclusion, for example by sexuality or race, and I think exclusion should be anathema for Linux and open source projects.

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          I think the general idea is to create as much drain on Russia as possible. Limit there ability to import and export good while creating brain drain and terrible moral.

          How many Russians have defected at this point? Spoiler is a decent amount.

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          @lily33 @theunknownmuncher The best way we can help Ukraine is by removing outside influences from both sides. What is being portrayed as a war in Ukraine is really a proxy war between Russia and the US that was egged on by the US. This is most unwise given that both nations are armed to the teeth with nukes. We really should be looking at ways to de-escalate not escalate this war.

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      11 hours ago

      “propaganda”? Oh. You mean like Russia started a full blown unprovoked war with a peaceful nation? That “propaganda”?

      Sucks others got caught in the crosshairs, but that’s just what happens when your authoritarian government launches unprovoked wars and gets sanctioned.

      • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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        9 hours ago

        No matter how many times Western states and corporate media insist that it wasn’t provoked won’t change the fact that it was[1][2].

        • cm0002@lemmy.world
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          6 hours ago
          1. NATO Expansion: The argument that NATO’s eastward expansion “provoked” Russia is often linked to Gorbachev’s 1990 talks with Western leaders. However, this promise was tied to Germany’s unification, not a blanket prohibition on expansion. And importantly eastern european countries sought NATO membership because of their historical (and justified) fears of Russian imperialism (a dynamic Marxists should understand as nations seeking sovereignty free from external dominance.)

          2. Western Involvement in Ukraine: The U.S. supporting a regime change in Ukraine in 2014 is thought to be imperialism. But ignores the agency of Ukrainians, who led the Maidan protests because of already existing deep dissatisfaction with Yanukovych’s corrupt, oligarchic regime and his pivot to Russia. Supporting popular uprisings against oligarchs should align with Marxist values even if “the West” has its own interests

          3. The Role of Fascism in Ukraine: Yes, Ukraine has issues with far-right groups like so many countries but exaggerating their influence as a justification for invasion serves to divert attention from Russia’s own reactionary politics. Far-right elements in Ukraine do not define the country’s political landscape, nor do they justify imperial aggression from another state. Russia has its own history of fostering right-wing authoritarianism.

          4. Minsk Agreements: While the West" and Ukraine could be criticized for their handling of the Minsk agreements, Russia also violated these accords by continuing support for the separatists. Both sides share blame for the failure of Minsk, but it doesn’t make Russia’s invasion justified. Ukrainians didn’t provoke a full-scale invasion; they were defending their sovereignty.

          5. NATO as a “Defensive” Alliance: Criticism of NATO’s imperialistic behavior is fair its actions in places like Libya show it isn’t 100% defensive. But in this case, NATO’s expansion was driven by countries seeking security from a historically imperialist power. Ukraine wasn’t “provoking” Russia by wanting self-determination; it was trying to secure its future.

          You’re trying to push this “Actuall, but Ukraine DID provoke” narrative by mixing in unverified, ideologically biased material with references that are legitimate, but isolated incidents. Like linking far-right activity to justify the war conveniently ignores Russia’s (I should probably say everyone’s) own far-right issues. Marxists should reject imperialism in all its forms, including Russia’s actions in Ukraine.

  • OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
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    10 hours ago

    Greg sent out the patch but won’t respond to mail list questions. Sad to see Linux leadership bend the knee

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      Dude seriously and I can’t believe how many people don’t seem to see how sad that is in this thread.

      Even if you hate this country or that, not even responding about it and keeping the code and using it anyway and only removing the attribution to the maintainers they removed (although that will escalate to banning them altogether I imagine this seems like a step one kind of thing) is just salt on the wound .

      Super sad shit honestly.

    • kredditacc@lemmygrad.ml
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      How to piss off people 101.

      Do you fail to remember how the tech world collectively cringe at one guy who intentionally injected malware into his own npm library to delete all data from Russia and Belarus?

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      I don’t agree with communists either but open source software is supposed to be about more than that

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        5 hours ago

        It is a tricky topic that is hard to get right. For instance the CoreJS dev is Russian and he is maintaining a library that is depended on by a large number of counties.

        In general I support any action to further distance Russia but I can understand how the Russian maintainers feel. After all they may or may not support Russia.

        The likely cause of this was the fact that it looks bad on paper for Linux to have Russian involvement. After all that’s where all the “hackers” live. Somehow I think this was probably in response to a threat behind closed doors.

        I also would be concerned about counties trying to compromise foss but unfortunately that is just as likely to come from the US as it is from Russia.

        • nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
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          5 hours ago

          @possiblylinux127 @BobGnarley One would hope there are enough checks and balances such a major opensource project as Linux to keep malware out of the kernel regardless of who contributes to it, but we do there have been some instances where that was not the case.

          I see the evolution of the Internet as humanity growing a nervous system, and anything that gets in the way of that as negative.

          • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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            3 hours ago

            I’ve never heard of malware making into the kernel. The closest I’ve head was that university “research project” that tried to insert backdoors.

    • linuxisevil@lemmings.world
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      6 hours ago

      Dave Plumber talked about how much more secure Windows’ development is against backdoors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR7i1UfBtQM

      Yet everyone seems to have so much faith in an OS with a less competent development team and one that is composed largely of criminals no less, who’s target audience is criminals 🙄

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          6 hours ago

          He’s retired, what vested interest do you think he has. You think he gets money for talking about the working conditions at MS, I bet MS would really rather him not talk about what it’s like at the company even if he is careful not to spill secrets. They don’t discuss that stuff themselves for reasons ya know.

          This is like a whole new level of Linux cope here, trying to argue that a guy who is retired has is pushing an agenda to help Microsoft despite not working there anymore and being retired all because he says things about the shitty open source development structure you don’t like.

          • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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            5 hours ago

            You haven’t given any evidence to support your claim. All you did was link to some Youtuber who repeats Microsoft propaganda. (Old propaganda at that)

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            6 hours ago

            @linuxisevil Microsoft tends to provide stock options to their employees, this gives them more incentive to work 80 hours / week and contribute to the companies financial growth, and if they’ve retained those stocks, then they retain an interest.

            • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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              5 hours ago

              That doesn’t even matter. If he worked at Microsoft he probably has a Microsoft attitude. Also I’ve noticed that the older programmers share his sentiment.

              • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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                5 hours ago

                You have no idea what you are talking about and nether does the Youtuber dude you linked to. This is the same guy who says Cloud strike was causes by a EU ruling. The ruling didn’t require Microsoft to give everyone full access. It just required that they don’t abuse there control of the OS to give themselves a unfair advantage. Another words, they need to give Zoom the same access as Teams to the OS.

      • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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        5 hours ago

        Well my Uncle says that 5Ghz is how they program your brain to make you OK with getting vaccines. (Vaccines are government mind control bots)

        Also this is a Linux community (you are brave)