Democrats who are actually concerned about Republicans should be pushing hard for ranked choice voting.
These memes make Democrats feel good, but only annoys third party voters.
Never forget that in 2016 13% of Trump voters voted for Obama in 2008/12. Maybe the Democratic Party can share some blame, instead of just shaming the voters.
Jill Stien only had 2% of the vote in 2016. That is nothing. Most of those people would have stayed home. The reason Hillary lost was because she was a bad canidiate who was unable to resonate with young voters.
Maybe if everyone that posted threads like this voted 3rd party, maybe 3rd party would get enough votes for once to push a reelection and get on the radar? Instead of trying to get people to vote for 2 candidates that don’t support their needs and/or wants.
You do realize that the winning president has to win at least 50% of the electoral college vote in order to win. If no one president does then the top 3 candidates go to the house of representatives to be chosen. Just the media if this happened would finally put a third party on the radar, even if they only won one state.
A broken system gives you broken candidates.
I don’t understand why people make such a big deal out of these voters. Maybe I’m just consuming the wrong media, but it feels like third-party voters get 50x the blame nonvoters get for ruining elections with probably something like a thousandth of the population. I basically never see this discussion call out both third-party voters and nonvoters equally.
I keep seeing third-party voters maligned for thinking a candidate has hope to win a national election, I see so many arguments to address why third-party candidates can’t win. In spite of that, I have never come across any community anywhere where people collectively believe these candidates actually have a chance. People who consume crazy media can believe crazy things, that’s why MAGA is a thing, but there’s a whole Fox News etc media machine feeding those people. Is there a forum somewhere with more than ten people where there’s a consensus that a third-party candidate might actually win? None of the third party voters I have known or met irl believed this, and I would be shocked if they’re all weird exceptions.
Like, please, where are these people congregating to spread the ludicrous idea that a third-party candidate can win a national election? Looking on the recent green party posts on their subreddits, the only thing I see even close is a thread with a headline about “candidates are electable if people vote for them”, where the furthest they go in the comments is a few people talking about how big a deal it would be for the party if they got 5% nationally, and a couple other people replying to say the greens won’t even get 1% this year but the election is still very important because of some nonsense about incremental gains.
It feels like we’ve imagined a brainwashing machine that does not exist in reality, rather than admit to the existence of protest votes. Condemning protest votes means condemning protest nonvotes equally, and we’ll never have sufficient information about protest nonvoters to reasonably make a claim about how they would have voted. That would severely muddy any attempts to assign blame for election results.
If you’re trying to convince these voters to act differently, the way to do that would be to address the arguments they’re actually making, like the incremental gains nonsense. If you’re addressing arguments they haven’t been making at all, then it’s worth asking whether you’re trying to convince someone other than them.
Ranked choice voting eliminates the concept of spoiler candidates/parties.
You are correct. Also, OP is correct.
The duopoly of power won’t add ranked choice voting
People said this about weed. We literally had two states add it in like the last 10 years. Once a few more states pass RCV via initiative we’ll start seeing legislatures take it up on their own.
People said this about weed
Weed is not the good argument you think it is lmao. The fact it took decades to legalize and people are still imprisoned over it is a huge L, not a W
Well the point is that lack of 2 party support doesn’t mean it won’t happen, it just means its a slower, longer push.
Edit: I would also say there’s likely less built-in opposition for RCV - even hard conservative states like idaho are fighting ballot initiatives to expand RCV this year. 2 states are voting on it. Only 9 states have banned RCV (vs federal bans for MJ)
People get weird close to the election.
People voting green party did so for a reason. Not everyone fits into perfectly shaped boxes for the 2 party system. Many vote 3rd party for leverage for policy change. The narrative of picking the lesser evil doesn’t always apply to the narrative of the individual voter.
Did people who voted for Stein get what they wanted by electing Trump?
Did Democrats get what they wanted by running Clinton?
No, she didn’t win. Did that sound like a cool comeback in your head?
No, they got what they wanted by bringing third party candidates to the discussion table so more people would vote third party in future elections.
One day we might even be able to elect a candidate who isn’t the “lesser evil”
One day we might even be able to elect a candidate who isn’t the “lesser evil”
Literally impossible in the US unless one of two things happen. Either:
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Both the current major parties fracture, and the resulting two parties that will occur thereafter align themselves on axes that are dissimilar to the ones that the current two parties are aligned on, or
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Laws are passed to remove FPTP and winner take all so that not voting for a Republican or Democrat has an actual influence on the vote.
The current system in the US is statistically proven to result in two majority parties controlling the government. The only effect that voting third-party does now is to spoil the votes for the majority-party candidate most closely aligned with that third-party.
The Labour party in the UK won as a third party in a duopoly system
The rise of Labour happened because of a change in the voting system. The Reform Act of 1918 got rid of property qualifications which previously hindered Labour’s base from being able to vote. And even then Labour and the Liberals competing for votes resulted in a decade of conservative government.
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We’ll end up with 3 or more while instead of the usual 2.
One day we might get stv approval voting instant runoff or one of the methods that allow 3rd parties to win push for that at the state level instead of fantasies that can never work
They did manage that the democrats will never run with hilary again -> If both choices in the current election are shit you can at least try to influence the next one.
Also fuck 'muricas election system. Everything resulting in a 2 Party system is no real democracy.
We are literally vote in a Hitler figure who is going to build concentration camps and wreck the country or stick with sanity. The lesser of two evils is necessary until the second major party stops running Hitler.
I might risk voting 3rd party if this election wasn’t a choice between boring corporatists and 100% concentrated evil.
The stakes are just too damn high to risk letting Trump get back into the White House again.
Honesty is refreshing. I’m voting for Harris because I don’t want to see Trump’s orange face every week. Yes, I know what she is. Yes, I know what that makes me. I’ve made my peace with it. No, I don’t blame others who feel differently.
I’ve always critiqued the democrats but I’m so tired of trump. I will vote for a thousand boring democrats if it means removing these entitled, lying MAGA idiots from anything resembling power. They all belong in lunatic asylums, not in government.
it’s not worth it until first past the post is removed.
Until then it’s mathematically impossible for a third party candidate to win. Focus your energy instead on removing first past the post, then you have a chance
The only time I went third party it wasn’t to win. It was because I saw it as two main candudates so shirty that there was a good chance for third party to snag more voters than usual, possibly enough to gain slightly better recognition in the future.
The monkey’s paw curled.
We got Trump. The recognition came as irrational blame for Trump.
I won’t make the same mistake of voting for someone I think would do the best job. Now it’s merely an effort to keep the worst viable candidate out.
You do understand that this is exactly what the democrats and the GOP want? Most importantly, what the people funding both parties want. If you’ll vote for an unelected enabler of genocide just to keep another guy out you’re showing them morals don’t come into the equation for your vote.
What’s stopping them from running a charismatic fascist vs an unlikable one?
Stop blaming voters for the democratic party repeatedly choosing the most conservative candidate and pretending they did it for “electability”, only to end up in tight races.
This is the way.
The elections will always be between “boring corporatist and 100% concentrated evil”. Every election feels like it’s the most important one. You just gotta suck it up and vote third party regardless.
Except this time there is a literal fascist running. The third party argument doesn’t work when we’ve got a candidate quoting Hitler and promising that this will be the last election you’ll have to vote in.
There’s always a literal fascist running, that’s what the GOP is there for. Lately, there’s two.
No, there isn’t always a literal fascist running and to say that there is severely and dangerously downplays the threat that Donald Trump poses to both the US and the rest of the world. It’s also a disgusting way to devalue the victims of fascism. A fascist is not simply someone you disagree with; they are not just an asshole, or a bad leader, or someone who leads their country into a war for their own gain. Fascists will erode your way of life, they will take whatever they want, they will take away your rights and spit in your face while doing so (assuming they don’t simply have you arrested), they will kill you as soon as it either benefits them or if they just want to for the hell of it.
Use whatever perceived intellect and moral high ground you can trick yourself into believing you have to vote 3rd party, but just know that you are aiding in Trump’s re-election. And all because you’re too much of a dipshit to know the difference between an asshole and a fascist. Fuck you.
Lmao. Don’t lecture me on what Donald Trump is gonna do to the rest of the world when it’s been both parties robbing us in the global south. Many of Trump’s most atrocious policies have just been happily accepted as the new normal by democrats. That’s their function, one does the dirty work, the other pretends it has to stay this way now.
Any metric that doesn’t include Joe Biden – the guy directly responsible for the mass incarceration of PoC via the 90s crime bill, a segregation advocate, a guy who has increased the number of children in cages in migrant camps, who keeps shipping weapons to a state in the middle of a completely broadcasted genocide – as a fascist, is a worthless, arbitrary metric.
You’re telling me Bush, who greatly enhanced the ability of the NSA to spy on every single citizen in America, who had a torture camp in Guantanamo where they knew they were torturing innocent people, who had black sites in abu ghraib, who gave finance capital carte blanche to rob people with predatory mortgages and securities built on air, that guy isn’t a fascist?
All this tells me is that the US has a far greater tolerance for fascism than anywhere else in the world as long as you don’t use the word, and provided the fascists aren’t targeting them specifically.
That doesn’t have to be the case. I’ve never felt that we had pure evil to battle until Trump was a candidate. Historically there’s been mostly two sets of policies and I prefer one or the other
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See how that says “99.8% reporting”? If you look at the NYT, it shows the results after counting 100% of the votes, and it matches what’s in the picture.
Fair enough, you are correct. Still bullshit to think that all of those voter would automatically go to clinton, but I will delete the bad information.
This should be top comment.
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By your standard, your posts here should be removed for misinformation because your numbers don’t include all of the election votes. Here are the final results of the 2016 elections by state, with citations. The numbers are consistent with the infographic.
Yeah, that’s why I did that.
Thanks for the retraction. It was the honest thing to do.
It’s incorrect. Look at the NYT. The difference is that Politico’s numbers weren’t updated after the final votes were counted.
Stein wasn’t even the only third party candidate stealing votes. I voted for Gary Johnson with the Libertarian party as a “protest vote”. Glancing at national results, he had almost three times as many votes as Stein did.
I was 100% the moron this meme is targeted towards. I voted for Harris yesterday.
But you aren’t a moron if you learned from your mistakes. It means the opposite.
I wish we had ranked choice voting. Then these protest votes would still work and not screw with the system so bad and we could fight the stranglehold of the two party system.
I want something like this where I live. We have FPTP here, but we have a viable third option in some areas. I’d be happier to to have more than 2 robust parties on the national stage.
There were 6 or 7 candidates for President on the Virginia ballot. Would have been great to have RCV at the bare minimum here.
My state is trying to constitutionally ban the use of ranked choice systems 🫠 fingers crossed the muppets just drew enough awareness to implement it after we reject this amendment
Hey good on you for being open to change your stance. So many people these days cant.
Me too Stein in 2016. I was so mad at Clinton for what they did to Sanders. I am voting Harris as soon as voting is open here.
Bernie deserved so much better, and I fucking hate the way the 2016 democrats fucked him over.
Don’t forget 2020. They even made Warren stay in through super Tuesday just to fuck him over more. Not to mention thar snake trying to claim Sanders as a sexist with that hot mic. I never forgive her for that.
I was that moron too in 2016.
Never again.
Third party voting; the really real reason Democrats and Republicans can’t get their candidates elected. lol
Thanks, bro. Legit appreciate it.
Same same man… Voting blue on Monday.
anyone who acknowledges and leans from mistakes is the smartest of the smart. the dumb ones double down and repeat mistakes no matter what evidence is presented to them.
thank you for admitting and learning from your mistake. I wish everyone was like you.
The Jill Stein hate requires a lot of ignorance and very little faith in the candidate running at the head of the Democratic Party.
Obama crushed McCain and Romney, green party be damned. Biden squeaked by Trump on thinner margins than Trump beat Hilary. Nobody cared about Stein in that race.
What changed? Why are Democrats so terrified of the green party all of a sudden?
Because Biden just squeaked by Trump. Leading to 50%-ish of the US population and 80%-ish of Republican voters believing that the last election got stolen. Also leading to a lot of election officials in key states being replaced by fair election denying nutjobs.
Haven’t you been paying attention in the past few years?
I’m not even in the US and I’m already exhausted with the BS that’s upcoming, if there’s no landslide victory for any of the candidates.
Be aware that any third party vote will be a vote for trump. If that’s what you truly want, I fear for your sanity.
Btw, it’s not true that nobody cared about Stein in the previous election. Back then they too said “a vote for Stein is a vote for trump”. You may not have heard it personally, but that message was out there. And it’s still true today!
I’m voting Jill. All your liberal gaslighting just hardens my resolve. I don’t care how many convoluted explanations you come up with to say I’m voting for Trump. My ballot never said Trump and never will.
Correct, but your ballot helps Trump win nonetheless.
No, your refusal to field an actual popular candidate with actual progressive policies helps Trump win.
Homie, I do not control who the DNC fields. I am basing my strategy on the facts of the situation as they are presented to me. Where’s your popular candidate?
Right, you only tirelessly shill for them by browbeating anyone that has a problem with their candidate currently overseeing a genocide.
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Someone not even from the US understands this better than you?
Man… you have no excuses.
At this point it’s clear to me why you’re here and what you’re about.
either trump or Harris will be president. you can throw away your vote, or choose the one that better aligns with your position.
My ballot never said Trump and never will.
When your vote comes with a free red hat, it kinda does.
And the Shill Stein love requires zero common sense, and a shit load of entitlement.
The only people insisting someone is entitled to your vote are shills working for the Ds and Rs
No one is insisting anyone is entitled to anyone’s vote. We are however insisting that you try and understand how voting statistics and simple grade-school math works.
Everyone else has this figured out already? Why are we so close to an election and you still don’t? Do you seriously think that you have some big hidden secret figured out? You know better than the overwhelming majority of an entire country?
Every generation does this shit. You think you know how it works. You don’t.
No one is insisting anyone is entitled
a shit load of entitlement.
:-/
Everyone else has this figured out already?
There arguments have been made. You simply don’t like the conclusions other people have reached.
It’s amusing that you have the nerve to accuse others of being shills.
It’s curious to see what touches your nerves
This, but since dot world is infested with Reddit liberals you’re getting down voted into oblivion.
They’re getting downvoted into oblivion because everyone here knows better.
It’s always easy to be the most ignorant one in the the room if you ignore everyone that tries to tell you how and why you’re wrong.
Dont let online bullies influence your vote. Each citizen gets one vote, cast it for whom you wish to support. Learn about the issues, the policies being proposed, and cast your vote for whomever you support.
REEEEEEEEE how dare you vote any other way than what I PERSONALLY WANT? Have you thought about asking me first??
*as long as you support one of the major 2 parties
The GOP and the democrats are two arms of the same corporate party. Fuck them.
If this were true then American politics really are terrible. Minority should hold seats. America needs to revisit representation.
It’s actually not entirely true, it only counts stein as the only 3rd party (the libertarian candidate in PA got 3x as many votes as her, I’d bet those 3rd party votes wouldn’t have gone to Clinton) AND doesn’t report factual numbers.
It’s just not true.
That said unfortunately voting for a 3rd party candidate is largely useless in the USA and the forces trying to get their opponents voters to vote 3rd party are probably more overwhelming then the forces actually compelling folks to vote 3rd party.
FPTP needs to die in the USA.
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This is the way.
That makes an assumption that all or a big majority third party voters would prefer Harris over Trump.
Just for clarifying the logic here.
Yes. If Greens tend to the Left, the last thing they should want is right extremists
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Nobody who would have otherwise voted for Trump is going to be convinced to vote for Stein. Every vote she gets IS one that was much more aligned with Harris.
This isn’t a question of ALL third parties, but there aren’t any right-aligned third parties making any kind of a meaningful run.
What??
In Michigan Gary Johnson got 172,136 votes, in Pennsylvania he got 146,715, and in Wisconsin he got 106,674. If all Greens voted Clinton and all Libertarians voted Trump then New Mexico would’ve only been won by Clinton with around 1,000 votes, Colorado would’ve also been nearly Trump. Nevada, New Hampshire, and Minnesota would’ve been won by Trump. Maine might’ve gone majority Trump.
Third parties hurt Trump more than they help him, because Libertarians would not have voted Clinton.
The Green Party is far more left-wing than the Libertarian Party is right-wing.
It’s very convenient measuring ideological abstracts rather than the objective number of votes those parties got.
Vote for the candidate that aligns to your politics. If genocide and climate disaster is compatible with those, stick to the GOP or the Democrats.
How does that contradict what I said. Also the LP is still further right than the GOP
If all third-party candidates had to vote for one of the two main candidates, I think nearly all of the Green Party votes would go to the Democrat, while the Libertarian votes would be much more of a split.
while the Libertarian votes would be much more of a split.
Maybe an 80/20 split at best, but the GOP has always been the more libertarian aligned party, going back to Barry Goldwater, Ron Paul, Rand Paul, and now Thomas Massie
They actually aren’t further right anymore
I don’t agree, but “right-wing” doesn’t really have a non-arbitrary definition so it doesn’t really matter
And how many of them are running now? This isn’t about them, this is about the one third party candidate that actually makes headlines.
Why do headlines matter if she gets way less votes than Libertarians?
The Green party gets more attention in left-leaning circles because there are people sympathetic to it and there are people who want to blame them for the Democrats losing. It’s not because they’re actually more popular than the Libertarian party, which regularly gets like 3 times as many votes.
2020: 1,865,917 (LP); 405,034 (GP) 2016: 4,489,359; 1,457,216 2012: 1,275,923; 469,627 2008: 523,713; 161,797 2004: 397,265; 119,859
So it’s completely wrong to say that “there aren’t any right-wing third parties making any kind of a meaningful run.” It’s just that your perception of how popular the Libertarian party is compared to the Greens is distorted.
At the same time, the way that the EC favors the GOP causes the spoiler effect of the Green Party to be amplified compared to Libertarians.
How? By the same math as OP, the Libertarian Party splitting the vote cost Trump Arizona, Georgia, and Wisconsin in 2020. That’s 37 EC votes which would’ve been enough to make the election an exact tie.
Then maybe Kamala should stop glazing Israel’s d. so much and actually do something to win back michigan muslims. They’ll either vote third party or won’t vote at all. The trumpists will vote Trump anyway. This post is purely delusional if you think you’ll win some voting groups back just by dragging third party candidates through the mud. Especially voting groups so deeply involved in some issues that your beloved candidate clearly doesn’t care about at all.
