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Hate to say it but, wtf does this mean anyway? Does the left have anything to offer to Russia, China, etc? What does it mean for us to support them, or to withdraw our support?
My honest and most realistic appraisal is that our support means nothing, we have nothing to offer, and any engagement in discourse about the moral or political value of the projects of the Russian state or the Chinese state is basically fruitless when the discussion among those in the halls of power is so far removed from our discussion that the difference between the most fervently critical Anarchist comrade and the most ridiculously pro-SMO ML is completely irrelevant. It’s not exactly arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but functionally it’s just as useless of a discussion. If we all agree that we have to show up at protests resisting the MIC, calling for peace, supporting leftist local politicians, and doing everything we can to raise union membership, what difference does it make that I ‘stan China’ but you ‘critically support Putin despite Duginist elements in the Russian government’? Is it not just as fruitless as political compass memes? Because from where I’m looking it literally is just PCM for people that have read the manifesto. The only value of the argument is to intellectually deduce the truth, a project that’s completely separate to actually achieving political power.
And yes, where you land in the spectrum of supporting Russia and China can influence which political party in your area to support, but practically the only material difference a minority party will make is whether it’s going to support sanctions and tariffs against Russia and China, or it won’t. However, not to No True Scotsman, but no true leftist party is going to jump on such a blatantly neoliberal and imperialist position as to economically punish 2 of the largest populations on Earth while knowing how little effect those sanctions will have on the ruling classes of the target states. So we’re back to square 1, regardless of your position, the actions you can take regarding Russia and China are the same.
Just to finish off the rant, here’s a comment from 72T that I found really insightful. TL;DR the question isn’t, “should we support a multipolar world,” because we have no power to change that reality, whether it’s going to arrive or not is entirely out of our hands. The question is “what is to be done about the incoming multipolar world,” especially locally, with regards to how it affects our approach to building power.
No shade on JT though, as far as the question exists in a vacuum that’s a good answer.
No, it’s important to, as Mao said, properly delineate who’s our friends and who’s our enemies. Otherwise, your org will do cringey shit like the DSA delegation snubbing the Cuban president and talking to a bunch of traitors working for the CIA instead.
Unless you want your org to be completely isolated from the international community and abandon internationalism, it has to connect and break bread with other orgs throughout the world and perhaps even anti-imperialist governments. While the DSA shit the bed with regards to Cuba, I think the DSA also send a delegation to Venezuela where they met Maduro. Obviously, Maduro isn’t going to meet with a bunch of dipshits who shittalk him by calling him an authoritarian dictator, but by personally meeting with Maduro, they have tacitly (and rightfully) support Maduro and uphold the Bolivarian Revolution.
Synthesis: The answer to this question,
Does the left have anything to offer to Russia, China, etc? What does it mean for us to support them, or to withdraw our support?
is that it is inconsequential what an individual leftist believes, but it matters a great deal for national leftist organizations to connect and build solidarity with international leftist organizations. What the American left (for example) has to offer China is quite simply a counterpart in America which can participate in the broader socialist movement, which is mutually beneficial. If/when shit does hit the fan, the left has to be ready both theoretically and organizationally.
I really agree with this but I’ll add a little more. A lot of the theory written by people like Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Mao occurred in the context of historical upheaval during which theory was absolutely necessary to chart a path forward for an actually existing political movement. So those writings should be understood first as practical and only second as abstractly philosophical.
Theoretical development is still worth doing in order to prepare, but there is way too much emphasis on abstract correctness over real successes.
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Completely agree about the need for theory to evolve with material changes.
Science needs to advance, but does it follow that every individual leftist needs to be preoccupied with theory, with becoming a scientist? For every Lenin there were millions of average people trusting in the party line that he and the Bolsheviks produced. Most Russian revolutionaries, of whom only a fraction were serious party members, likely did not have a strong grasp of theory outside of their own experience.
Western leftists (myself included) have to combat their latent liberalism, one form of which is a belief in the “marketplace of ideas.” This belief is the basis of electoralism, which as most lefitsts understand theoretically, is ineffectual in practice. Yet with so much emphasis on perfecting science, one has to wonder if the Western left has actually internalized the truth that the best idea does not inevitably win, that progress doesn’t follow inevitably from worsening material conditions.
We could have a perfect theoretical understanding of capitalism and it would not matter until the left has politically organized in such a way as to put that theory into practice. There are enough theorizers/philosophers/“scientists” on the left and not enough direct action and organizing.
Reading the abstract theory of Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Mao — it is too easy to forget the context in which those writings happen. Many believe that Marx invented communism, but his actual result was consolidating an otherwise disorganized proletarian movement under a single theoretical basis.
The manifesto itself was written intentionally watered down on some points so as to receive buy-in from various socialist factions. The intellectual disagreements between the factions worked themselves out because the correctness of this or that idea was demonstrated in practice. Engels wrote in his 1888 preface to the manifesto,
Marx, who drew up this programme to the satisfaction of all parties, entirely trusted to the intellectual development of the working class, which was sure to result from combined action and mutual discussion. The very events and vicissitudes in the struggle against capital, the defeats even more than the victories, could not help bringing home to men’ s minds the insufficiency of their various favorite nostrums, and preparing the way for a more complete insight into the true conditions for working-class emancipation. And Marx was right. The International, on its breaking in 1874, left the workers quite different men from what it found them in 1864. Proudhonism in France, Lassalleanism in Germany, were dying out, and even the conservative English trade unions, though most of them had long since severed their connection with the International, were gradually advancing towards that point at which, last year at Swansea, their president [W. Bevan] could say in their name: “Continental socialism has lost its terror for us.” In fact, the principles of the Manifesto had made considerable headway among the working men of all countries.
Leftist theory does need to advance, but not through contemplation alone. It needs to be tested in practice. And I think that is what JT is saying here, that theoretical correctness is secondary to direct action.
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good comment
great comment, even
great comment theory of history
Make a c/greatposting and chuck this in it.
Wasn’t that what best of hexbear was for?
If you stand back and be silent when “enemy” countries get slandered, you are legitimizing imperalism and help cultural imperalism do its work. This applies on a micro & marco-level.
I think it was Xi who personally said the digital space was an important ideological battleground of the 21st century. Posting is praxis people.
Foreign policy is not democratized. The range of acceptable discourse inside imperialist countries never spans past the point where you turn around and actually oppose imperialism, the opposition actually lands so far away that any speech against empire is thoroughly delegitimized and often holds negative power to change the reality of imperialism, because by holding that position you become the boogeyman for the moderates to rally against. Not that we shouldn’t be anti-imperialists, but thinking that you will just change reality by having the correct ideas, with no concrete plan as to how you’ll enact those ideas into material reality is ahistorical and antimaterialist. Note that when it comes to organizing in favor of Palestine the situation is entirely different because we do have things we can do to improve the situation for Palestinians, but the same can’t be said for Russia and Ukraine, or anything related to China. The only thing you have to offer is discourse, which the ruling class has the power to invert in their favor. No amount of 500 follower hammer and sickle accounts on Twitter dunking on White House press releases is going to stop aid to Ukraine, you’re probably getting Twitter to get even more reactionary if anything.
So that ties back into my point, we have no organization broad enough or strong enough to actually change reality w.r.t. foreign policy, especially towards the main enemies of empire. We’re just a part of the culture, part of the superstructure that maintains the base but has little power to materially change it until we can have enough workers willing to withhold their labor politically conscious and organized. Once we’re at that point then those questions do become important and we have a broader international left to fit into.
Being aware of what is good and bad, and spreading awareness of those distinctions, must surely be useful. Discussing and working out what sucks and what is cool is a big part of how we as commies organise in the first place to then get said power. If you don’t ask these questions before you have power, you’ll find yourself in bed with unsavory types.
Anti-X or Y country sentiment is a powerful tool to discredit the left. A lot of people are afraid to engage in Marxism because “it’s gonna be like the China which is bad”
You failed to consider thoughts and prayers.
I think the only thing Western leftists have to offer is withholding their consent for war/conflict.
China’s recent changes in Visa policy are interesting. Previously it’s been evident that they’ve been willing to spend zero effort on their pop image in the West, which shows how much difference they think public opinion has on Western government policy. Visa free entry being opened to a swathe of Western countries reflects a change in attitude: maybe they think that a positive Westerner view of China is more valuable now, maybe they think it’s easier to push back against “China Bad” propaganda now.
The fact that US and UK are notably excluded from the visa-free policy suggests Beijing sees more potential in Australian and European public opinion.
I def get schadenfreude from Russia being a pain in the ass for the US empire. It’s fun to watch state department ghouls run around with their hair on fire trying to figure out Russia’s next moves, which is often just rational capitalist moves given their circumstances. My fever dream is the PRC continuing to undermine US hegemony and court/guide Russia back into an era of a new USSR, finally driving the rest of the global south into revolution and choking off the great Satan.
Sadly China has not been interested in actively building international socialism in a long time. Maybe that will change one day, but not yet.
Support them when they do good things, criticize when they do bad things. It goes for any country. Feels like its 2022 again and people are relearning what “critical support” means.
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Yeah when we look at the narrative around Putin. Its unironic great man theory as if he is behind all the reactionary and conservative aspects. The worst part being the liberal fetish for color revolutions. The idea there is some liberal hero being oppressed and would be ready to replace him if only we support them. They tried that shit with Navalny even though nobody anywhere even knows him and not realizing he was just as racist and a nazi shit as everyone else.
Putin would be coup by the kind of people that think the war is embarrassing and would be ready to do a full mobilization(an additional 1 million or so) and actualy start bombing and destroying Ukraine indiscriminately.
This whole idea of a slow paced war of a attrition is not without its shaky moments(the Moskva,Kherson retreat, the Moscow attack etc). Nobody pretends the war is without cost, but Russia is managing this cost because they’re being very conscious and smart about e.g building the military industry, making sure to transfer more wealth to workers even if just government subsidies etc.
Of course none of this is to say Putin deserves any praise but he was willing to admit to his previous mistake of being naive and willing to bring Russia closer to the west. His replacement in a coup would be someone even more resentful not less, someone even more agressive towards Ukraine not less.
The mythical “western values” loving Russian? That was quite literaly Putin 25 years ago lol.
There is very little room for left wing movements in the Global South to survive until Western imperialism has been completely and thoroughly defeated
I posted about this a while back. I think (and hope) that the path forward is along these lines but it will of course happen over a long time period. Practically this will take the shape of slackening control of western imperialism enabling political alternatives to be tried. There will be failures, false starts, and even fully wrong solutions (Milei is a good example of the latter) but precisely because people will be able to try things without the CIA or capital bringing down the boot we have a chance to see some critical successes.
But you don’t support Ukraine, so that means you want all Ukrainians fed into a woodchipper and Putin to rule all of Eurasia forever
Liberals really mock conservatives for having no nuance, then turn around and proceed to show they have none either
The leaders of the counter-hegemonic pole are Russia, China, and Iran, and no amount of coping or malding about the real and imagined inadequacies of these three will change this simple fact.
There is a reason we say “critical support”
If I were a Iranian I would have major issues with my national government. If I were Russian I would have major issues with my elected leaders. If I were Cuban, Vietnamese, or Chinese, I’m sure I would find something to complain about.
From my current position, in the imperial core, I refuse to speak ill of the countries working to dismantle American hegemony.
It’s also completely gross and disingenous to equate Russia with the US. Russia does not have thousands of military bases across the planet, it does not exploit other countries, and checks none of the boxes for any modern definitfon of imperialism.
Russia is capitalist, but like most capitalist countries on the planet, its a victim of US imperialism, not a recipient of its benefits.
First-world ultralefts can’t help themselves but criticize countries for not meeting their high and abitrary standards. Russia is the main country in the world rn killing NATO troops and draining the west’s military resources.
Analysis I don’t agree with = coping and malding?
Russia also has a lot of influence in the global south that China lacks. You can give me all the history lessons you want as to why that is but at the end of the day it’s the Russian flag you see rebels waving and not the Chinese one.
Russia has a much better track record in Africa than China going way back to Tsar Nicholas II. It says a lot that even when Russia was at its most imperialist and reactionary, it still played a progressive role in Africa. Because if it wasn’t for Tsarist Russia under Tsar Nicholas II, Ethiopia wouldn’t have done so well in the First Italo-Ethiopian War, perhaps even be colonized by the Italians. At the height of European colonization of Africa, Ethiopia was the only African country that held onto its sovereignty (Liberia doesn’t count since Liberia was a de facto US colony), and much of it was thanks to Tsarist Russia.
Russia’s hands are almost completely clean when it comes to Africa. More Africans died from being tossed overboard in a single slave ship headed to the Americas than however many Africans Wagner or any other Russian-affiliated group has killed. As long as the current Russia leader isn’t as bad as some inbred anti-Semitic chump who got owned by communists, Russia will most likely continue to play a progressive role in Africa.
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This is why I always say that if China is serious about leading the anti-imperialist movement against the global hegemon, it can start by using its vast amount of foreign reserves to pay back the Global South debt. This will improve China’s image in the eyes of many Global South countries.
isnt china already doing this?
On the other hand, and unfortunately, China still has some issues with their image across the Global South (and I say this as a Chinese myself). Many countries are still quite suspicious of China’s intentions and there is an impression that China is only interested in doing business where profit matters.
is there some truth to his or is it another fabrication from western media?
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I wouldn’t say that’s true. China doesn’t try to enact regime change, they work with the establishment. That’s why you don’t see rebels flying the Chinese flag, but it doesn’t mean China lacks influence. They just lack influence with rebel groups.
Nah, I don’t really see people wave Chinese flags. And it has little to do with them being anti-communist because I see them occasionally wave DPRK flags as well.
Chinese foreign policy has been shit since they helped the DPRK during the Korean War(which was basically the last good thing they did). Meanwhile the DPRK has always been on the right side of history when it comes to conflicts in MENA and Africa
Up through the 70s China was an active material supporter of the PFLP.
PRC and DPRK have completely different circumstances.
China spent decades avoiding antagonising the West and quietly developing its economy (Deng’s “Lay low and develop the productive forces”) to the point where Western economies were so dependent on China that they can’t cut it down to size anymore. DPRK had no such potential as they were already severely sanctioned.
So while DPRK has been able to always be outspokenly on the right side of history, no other socialist state can match the PRC’s ability to aid other states in their development, share potentially world-saving green energy solutions across the global South, stake a socialist presence on the moon and Mars which would otherwise be de facto American frontiers, and have its private sector take money from Western gamers and use it fund fusion power research.
Yeah, I know WHY they do things the way they do/did. I don’t have to like it though.
Overall I’m just sad we lost a socialist counterbalance to the world hegemony of capitalism
Yeah I think China has economic and some social influence in the global south but Russia definitely has much more military influence because of their willingness to provide military assistance.
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From the Tucker Carlson interview. Putin compares Russia with the US. Putin says “We are bourgeois now as you are. We are a market economy and there is no communist party with power.”
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He probably has a pretty good idea about where Russia stands on leftism, though.
Was that not him speaking about Russia in the 90s?
Tucker asks the question. “Why does the US fear a strong Russia by not a strong China?” Putin says that in 1991 Russia expected to be welcomed into “the brotherhood of civilized nations”. Then Putin talks about NATO expansion. Putin says that the US lied because they had promised not to expand eastward after 1991. Then he said that there were 5 waves of NATO expansion after 1991. Putin says that at each wave of expansion, Russia tried to persuade NATO to stop expanding by saying that Russia is a “bourgeois” country with a “free market” and “no communist party with power”.
The first NATO expansion after 1991 was in March 1999, then again in 2004, 2009, 2017, 2020, 2023, and 2024. It is my understanding that Putin was referring to the period from 1999 to present day.
Maybe maybe not, but it’s as true today as it was in the 90’s so that distinction doesn’t really matter.
I thought Putin was popular because of his resistance to the shock doctrine. Russia doesn’t seem imperial and has a ton of productive capacity. With that many prols and the their history with the USSR certainly they’re not actually as bourgeois as the us now. Do you have any information? Most I’ve read is Kathleen Tyson and she describes it as some sort of proto China.
He absolutely was and no I don’t believe Russia is imperial, but it is on the same spectrum as the United States still. I explain this more in a different comment below if you want to see my reasoning.
I read it and once again I don’t have a great understanding of how Russia is organized and would love some good sources.
Regarding the new deal. It would only be a step towards communism if the capital class was being subjugated in order to redistribute the wealth and if that wealth was not bc of super profits. Since the new deal didn’t disempower capital the reforms were unwound. Since China has made capital sub to the prols in many ways it can make headway to communism and it continues to do so. How and what Russia has done is not something I have knowledge of but since the us has started a war with them I can make the reasonable assumption that Russia’s wealth is not being made available to western oligarchs. Who is it being made available to? I don’t know. But as i said before Tyson says that its going to the prols. If that is the case and if it is the case that the redistribution is because of capital subjugation then Russia is going commie. Another thing I think is interesting is that it seems like there is no large movement forcing the redistributive efforts ala the new deal. So I’ll continue to keep and open mind towards rus
Russia’s wealth is not being made available to western oligarchs.
You are correct, the United States sanctioned Russia as well as the oligarchs. The west basically shot themselves in the foot because without the oligarchs Putin can do whatever within reason.
Who is it being made available to?
This is the part that we will not truly know until the war is over and in my opinion it is going to be the thing that there will inevitably be a struggle session about. It is the reason I brought up the comparison to the new deal because IMHO redistribution in this fashion is not what makes communism. Ive supported Russias position in the war for years now, but I don’t want to say they’re going commie until I see it with my own eyes and a post war new dealish economy, aint gonna cut it personally. Putin has been a straight shooter so far, which is nice when he’s combating western propaganda, but that also means we should probably take him at his word when he says he is the leader of a western inspired bougie economy. Could be wrong obviously, but I’m not holding my breath.
Another thing I think is interesting is that it seems like there is no large movement forcing the redistributive efforts ala the new deal.
This is true, but from what I understand Russia has made pretty good efforts in making the various minority communities feel included in the larger Russia society but also respecting their various cultures. America is just too sexist, racist, xenophobic etc to do that.
The Russian economy today is equally free market to the 90s? Do we have evidence or just vibes
If the United States decided today that it would bring back a new deal economy and millions of people were given well paying jobs and a comfortable standard of living, would you see that as a step towards communism? Obviously Russias wealth comes from its abundant resources, and I believe the average Russian today sees more of their labor in their pocket than before, but it’s still an economy based on the exploitation of its people. It is miles better than the US new deal economy because that economy was based on the exploitation of its people and also the imperial exploitation abroad, but it’s still on the same spectrum. I think Putin’s correct when he says they are similar to the west.
When the empire is targeting a designated enemy that undermines the empire, it will deploy constant propaganda against that target.
Those who want to see the end of the empire will then need to take time to explain why the target is not uniquely bad, the criticisms are largely false, etc etc. Otherwise you’re just helping manufacture consent for the targeting of that country.
This is the kind of “support” socialists should provide. Push back on Russophobia, collective punishment, the US war machine, support for NATO, and false histories of what’s happened in Ukraine and Syria.
Folow up question: Would Russia be such a deranged right-wing oligarchy if it wasn’t for the constant US/EU meddling and shitfuckery?
Depends, would they still have tried to out-pizza the Hut?
You’re DELICIOUS!
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
If not for the constant US/EU meddling and shitfuckery, there wouldn’t be a Russian Federation nor a war in Ukraine, because there would be a USSR
Russia is literally the only reason why countries like Cuba or DPRK are still standing- I do not think China would ever put up the slag in that regard. So the preserverance of russian independence is one of the major ways the global south can be helped.
Russia is literally the only reason why countries like Cuba or DPRK are still standing
This is an overstatement. These places are standing because they literally fought and WON against the US. Give them the credit they deserve.
I don’t think it’s taking away from their revolutionary achievements to say that they would have been crushed without the Soviet Union!
But there’s also a serious difference between those two things. USSR =/= Russia.
True, I interpreted op as referring to both the ussr and Russia. If they are exclusively referring to the last 30 years, yes they’re incorrect. Regardless they would have perished on their own
Sure, but it is on the same level as claims that the USSR only defeated the Nazis because of the lend lease act. Material doesn’t fight on its own, and wars aren’t won without labor. You need both to be successful.
This is kinda what I was explaining to a lib friend the other day: I was a lot more ambivalent about the SMO before NATO got involved. I didn’t really have a pro/anti position, I just pointed out that this was the natural consequence of the events from 2014 onward.
I’m confused by this comment because NATO was involved the entire time.
ever so slightly less dogshit than his dogshit party
The only existing world power state I stan is China.
Thank goodness we have youtubers who deign to give their support for only a subset of those countries opposing NATO. China would be certain to fall without their support, and Russia is doomed without it. /s
Disappointed it’s not Justin Timberlake
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Yeah, those are all developing countries with little to no ability to project power beyond their borders.
Vietnam has such a large population that it is regionally significant, but yeah, definitely not a world power. The only real world powers are the US, Russia, China, and sometimes a messy block of the biggest EU countries. India might get there someday by virtue of size but economic development there is very bad. Countries like Iran, Brazil, the UK, Japan, and Mexico are globally significant but their power projection is a shadow of what the big three can do.
Cuba and the DPRK project power by just existing.
Do you know what power projection means? Because being an isola against global capital is praiseworthy, but definitely not projecting a thing
The DPRK specifically has artillery pointed at South Korea going on 70 years now. Why do you think they haven’t been invaded? The same with Cuba, they defeated the CIA in the bay of pigs. By routing the United States they defacto project power by existing. It’s the same reason Russia was able to park right up next to Cuba (they might still be there idk) obviously Russia is the larger power, but Cuba at the same time is able to say “if you don’t normalize relations, this will be a reoccurring event”
