- cross-posted to:
- bbc@rss.ponder.cat
- cross-posted to:
- bbc@rss.ponder.cat
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All fine and dandy until the neighbours start complaining that the regulars are now smoking outside their houses which happen to be just outside the pub exclusion zone.
They already do that anyway around me. The beer garden is on the other side of the road from the pub (Which is apparently allowable because it’s not an adopted road?).
Anyway sometimes people somehow manage to get lost crossing the 3m road and end up outside people’s houses sitting on the walls and stuff. I do mind the drinking but I object to them smoking and then me having to smell it.
Good - and take vaping with it.
There is the famous Yes, Minister argument about smokers being a net postitive for the NHS given that they are likely to die younger of smoking related diseases instead of requiring expensive care for more complex diseases later in life.
A study in Finland found that each smoker contributed a net positive of 133,000 euros to their health system by dying younger (on average). Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23233699/
I don’t think people in the UK care about this though. People seem to be consistently in favour of banning anything that they don’t personally partake in. This is despite the fact that smoking rates are at their lowest levels ever and still falling.
Labour are looking for a policy which is cheap for them to implement but has some popular support so they can basically say, “look at us; we’re governing!”
From the same study you linked:
However, if each lost quality adjusted life year is considered to be worth €22 200, the net effect is reversed to be €70 200 (€71.600 when adjusted with propensity score) per individual in favour of non-smoking.
Then there are the risks to other people from second hand smoke: https://www.nhsinform.scot/healthy-living/stopping-smoking/reasons-to-stop/dangers-of-second-hand-smoke/
People seem to be consistently in favour of banning anything that they don’t personally partake in.
If that’s your takeaway then you’re an idiot. People can smoke all they like, 50 packs a day if you want. Go for it.
But not near me. In your own house.
Yes in your own house, but not in your garden or with your windows open, because that’s too close to me!
You sound ridiculous.
but not in your garden or with your windows open, because that’s too close to me
Where are you getting this from? There’s a big difference between in a beer garden full of people and in your own garden.
If I can smell it it’s too close to me. You explain to me how it is ridiculous to demand people respect social boundaries Unless of course you’re a person who believes they should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want because they feel like it, in which case you can go walk off a short pier.
Please do better
Ridiculous everyone should just make do and put up with my addiction,what am I supposed to do smoke at home?!
RIP Pub workers having to put up with the “rebels” doing their upmost to take the piss I worked through the indoor ban went pretty well but there were a couple of those I am so smart I beat the system types.
The indoor ban where i live was an absolute shitshow. Both smokers and bar owners were the biggest piss babies about it. the owners formed smoking clubs, where you had to be in the club and pay a 10 dollar fee or something, so you are not in a pub, you were in a smoking club that happened to sell drinks. Nice, now i can pay a fee and smell like an ashtray? That’s so cool.
This is completely okay and the people who are calling this bad are coping and should quit stinking up public places with their disgusting shit.
Just as long as they include bloody vapors as well. If you’re not using vapes to quit then you don’t get to blow raspberry smoke in my face.
I don’t mind vaping nearly as much but I’d say that sounds fair
They will ban oxygen next
nanny state bootlicker
I never realised how much people want to be controlled by the government when I was younger.
This is fucked.
“But the government wants to ban something I don’t like! That’s good. They should stop others doing things I don’t like!”
That’s the purpose of the government.
If most of the people want something to be banned, it should be banned. The government works for the people.
Of course, the definition of “most” varies depending on the issue, it’s not always 50% (looking at you, Brexit).
Smokers pollute the air in a huge area around them. For the “benefit” of one person they are annoying up to dozens around them.
Every non-smoker looking to date that I know agrees that they would never date a smoker, that’s for a reason, non-smokers cannot tolerate the smoke. It’s awful.
Now do vapes. I find that disgustingly sweet vapour harder to tolerate cigarette smoke. But I get pleasure of people blowing yhat crap in the air in the supermarket.
Vapes are already banned indoors in most places, basically everywhere smoking is banned. The issue with vapes is a lack of enforcement.
Frankly, I think vapes should be allowed in certain areas indoors, provided they are segregated from others. Vapes are drastically less unhealthy than smoking, to the point where being outside in the cold is probably a greater health risk.
You say that. But as we are talking risks to others it catches me in a way that about 50% of the time it triggers an asthma episode.
Don’t k ow about you but I kind of like unrestricted breathing
Edit forgot to add in this stage of the vape life cycle cigarettes were advertised with health benefits. While I don’t doubt it’s better than smoking the jury is still out on long term effects
https://www.history.com/news/cigarette-ads-doctors-smoking-endorsement
I’m all for more study into the long term effects, and don’t think that vaping is completely harmless or that it necessarily has positive effects. However nothing is truly harmless, and many people are considered well within their rights to do things that have the potential to cause harm to themselves - or even others. Driving, for example, carries a significant risk, and even cycling could create a situation where you crash into another person and injur them.
I just think that allowing vaping rooms indoors would be a better solution for everyone. People who vape get to keep warm, while people who want to breathe unrestricted air could find themselves better off because the vapers are indoors and out their way.
Ahh I think you mean like the old idea of smoking break rooms, which sure everyone in there is by choice and accepts any risk.
I dont think your analogy of driving a car fits as driving has utility it reminds me of my yank friends arguing we should allow guns or ban knives because to do otherwise is hypocritical or something
Ahh I think you mean like the old idea of smoking break rooms
Yes pretty much. This was discussed and rejected in the UK when the smoking bans came in, however other places in Europe implemented indoor smoking just fine. As vaping is a lesser harm than smoking, and in particular vapors don’t linger like smoke does, it should be easier to implement. But UK politicians wants to maintain a hardline ban in spite of any rational reasoning.
I dont think your analogy of driving a car fits
It was just the first thing that came to mind, which is why I threw in cycling as well. Cycling is often done for recreation rather than utility, but does still carry risk to others nearby. Cars also pollute, though, which is a similar harm to smoking, yet people are against outright banning combustion vehicles. It generally boils down to “I do it, and I shouldn’t be banned, but I don’t do that other thing so that should be banned.”
For the record I don’t even smoke, in fact tobacco smoke makes me feel sick. But I don’t think people should be outright prohibited, not when a reasonable compromise can be reached.
There is a difference between not being allowed to fuck a horse and not being allowed to stink up a place with some gross ass cancer sticks.
Yes, yes there is.
Yes, blame the government for wanting to protect people’s health.
Absolutely trust the smokers who are clearly capable of making the correct descision instead.
There an element of personal freedom which people find important.
It’s not really a ban it’s just a protection for other people’s personal freedoms, I for one would love to get freedom to not smoke in an outside cafe, yet others are choosing for me now.
I mean… Just go to a cafe that doesn’t allow smoking at all? Are there none around?
No, there aren’t
There’s personal freedom, and then there’s just being bloody ridiculous.
Give it up. You’ll save money, smell nicer, be able to taste better and be healthier.
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/quit-smoking/nhs-stop-smoking-services-help-you-quit/
I don’t smoke mate.
It wasn’t necessarily directed at you. Maybe it might help someone.
When you smoke its not just your own health you ruin. It’s the same selfish thinking antivaxers have.
That’s not a terrible analogy, but doesn’t resounding support a ban. It’s virtually unimaginable (and I suspect more or less legally impossible) that vaccination would be obligatory.
Even though it has been in the past, and lead to the eradication of small pox.
And should be again to help eradicate measles, polio and many other very harmful, but easily preventable diseases.
But let’s not go there. I suspect there’s more of them than smokers, but quite a large overlap on a Venn diagram.
Yeah, what was legal/feasible 100 years ago might not be the best guide today. I mean no reasonable person would deny it would be better for public health.
That’s actually an interesting question. All the people I know who still smoke are left leaning and probably pro vaccine. I guess I don’t know many of the main smoking population (older lower socioeconomic status) so maybe there there’s more than coincidental overlap. It would be coherent I guess for the freedom over everything type people I suppose, depressingly.
Vaccination in the past has been obligatory, eg for polio.
So has lobotomy for certain mental health patients. What’s your point?
Good luck.
As an expat who’s recently visited back, I’m astounded at how UK smokers behave. Not even on a night out either; the chef on break flicking the finished end into the street puddle, folks lighting up right outside shop entrances, or the general lack of awareness towards smoking around children. Socially learned behavior that never gets the same tutting you might a speeding car or queue jumper.
I took a trip abroad years ago and was bewildered to see a guy light up and then pull out a foil-type pouch too. Not only did the butt go into that pouch for later disposal, but all his ash did too. I’ve heard Japan is much the same way, even Americans are far better culturally about sequestering themselves before smoking.
Fucking madness.
Absolutely stupid.
Is it? Second hand smoking still fucks you up, and it’s not like being outside completely fixes that.
unless they are literally blowing it into your face there really isnt much health risk
Car pollution fucks you up, too, probably more so. And before you say “people need cars to get places”, nicotine (and caffeine) fuelled the industrial revolution - nicotine makes your brain work faster, which can make people more productive.
Yeah and that’s why we have congestion charges and emissions zones and catalytic converters and environmental regulations on cars, to reduce the pollution that people are breathing in.
FYI I’m not in favour of ever banning smoking completely. The freedom to damage yourself is just as important as the freedom to not be damaged by someone else.
1987 smoking banned in London public transport following the deaths of 31 people in a fire
2005 banned in nationwide public transport
2008 banned in enclosed public spaces
2018 banned in prisons
I’m curious do you think they’re all stupid or just this one? Isn’t this one just an extension of “please don’t smoke directly in front of the hospital doors” for other public places?
What about the proposed plans to raise the smoking age year on year every year?
Banning smoking in prisons was insane. It was pioneered by “failing” Chris Greyling and essentially created a whole new category of contraband. I was watching a Business Insider doc on youtube about this and a former prisoner was saying that since this policy came into place, a pack of cigarettes is now valued at hundreds of pounds when traded between prisoners.
An enclosed space is very different to outside. That’s why you don’t run your car indoors.
Should we ban pubs from having car parks? Since the exhaust fumes are quite toxic.
Should we ban [cars]
I mean, disregarding the feasibility, political polularity and media optics of it, for the continuation of earths ecosystem… probably yeah
Should we ban pubs from having car parks? Since the exhaust fumes are quite toxic.
No, but we should ban the sale of new ICE cars (and in so doing begin a complete phase out) for those reasons and because they’re damaging to the wider environment.
Oh, look we are.
I don’t run my car indoors because generally it doesn’t fit through the door.
Lots of pubs don’t have car parks though so what’s your point?
Just so you understand, the reason that smoking outside should be banned is not because smoking is bad (although obviously objectively it is and you shouldn’t do it) but smoking near me is bad, and I am occasionally outside at the same time as you are outside. If you want to go smoke in the middle of a field, be my guest. Your life choices should not affect me.
Everyone who chooses to drive in a city centre has a directionally similar impact (potentially bigger magnitude because vehicle traffic is pretty lethal). I don’t think anyone disagrees with the principal, they just have different thresholds for personal freedom vs impact on those around you.
I think it’s hard not to see a culture/class aspect to this when wood burners continue to be used without much limitation.
Are you a little bit slow? You don’t see the difference between indoor and outdoor?
Absolutely brilliant.
Smoking is a choice and you’re choosing to make it someone else’s problem by smoking at pubs
By definition a substance use disorder is not a choice.
The choice is blowing smoke in public places, not craving nocotine
It’s mentally addictive not physically addictive so no that’s not a defense
Hate to break it to you but smoking is definitely physically addictive
What, smoking? I agree.
Absolutely authoritarian.
Education campaigns are far more effective with far less pushback than draconian bans. Let people choose for themselves.
I remember constant campaigns in the past trying to convince the public of the ills of smoking, and it (slowly) appeared to be working. Then vaping came along, and instead of continuing the education campaigns, the health departments tactics seemed to change to “take up vaping, it’s better than smoking”.
And now, it may just be anecdotal, but smoking appears to me at least, to be on the rise again. I wonder why?
Sounds like the same argument against banning smoking in pubs, which is probably the single greatest health intervention in the last fifty years and now supported by basically everyone.
Inside is very different to outside where smoke doesnt accumulate. You can instantly smell someone had a ciggarette inside even hours later, outside you cant tell (once the person has left) even a few seconds later.
That’s incredibly subjective, and not true for many. A lot of people can tell if you’ve been smoking outside
Its incredibly subjective that smoke dissipates far faster outside where there is significant airflow than inside closed rooms?
Yes your clothes might smell if you’ve been smoking outside, but if you walk away from the spot there isn’t any smoke hanging around for other people to breathe in. That is the difference when it comes to health effects from second hand smoke.
Sorry, I was referring to your comment, I’m not sure what you read
outside you cant tell even a few seconds later.
I’ve got bad news for you, smoker…we can tell. You fuckin STINK no matter where you smoke. Your breath, your clothes, your hair…yuck. Everyone knows you took that cigarette break.
A) other than a few joints in my 20s I’ve never smoked, dont be an arse and make assumptions about people you dont know.
B) I really dont care that smokers often stink, I dont live with any. My point was that their cancer causing fumes dont linger outside for me to breathe in so I dont care that they are doing it to themselves. The opposite is true inside where they are affecting me, so I’m glad that’s banned.
Well you specifically mentioned the smell which is what I was referring to
I mentioned the smell merely as a way of showing that smoke fumes linger inside in a way they dont outside.
Oh no! Smells! Call the police.
“Yes, police service please. Somebody was stressed at work and decided to take a break to calm down and in doing so inadvertently made my jumper smelly. Can you arrest them please? They’re still here. They’re behind the bar serving pints to everyone, you can’t miss them, their t-shirt is so pongy, poooooeeeyyyyy. I’ll see you in 5 minutes.”
I worked in a pub for a few years, do you know how difficult it is to get the plod to show up? Even if there’s two blokes kicking the shit out of each other it can be a task to get them to respond to the call.
Making it ILLEGAL to smoke outside is ridiculous. Those who say otherwise are far happier with government overreach and authority than they’d otherwise admit.
Edit: to add, remember when we were told sitting outside kept us safe from covid, an airborne virus, because of the constant airflow? Funny how that doesn’t apply to smoking.
The comparison to COVID is interesting. If people can smell the smoke, they’re literally breathing in the air that the smoker is breathing out, and one can definitely smell smoke from the next table over. Maybe that’s part of why lockdown didn’t work as well as we hoped.
Also, if you can smell it, it’s doing harm. Second and third hand smoke on your clothing is still real in outdoor spaces, and people should have the freedom to avoid that harm.
In your experience, do bartenders tend to take their smoke breaks in the outdoor seating area with the patrons? If not then your post is moot - the ban isn’t for employees taking a smoke break out back.
Can you read?
This reminds me of the pushback against mandatory seat belt use in the US. It’s absolutely in the public’s best interest to ban public smoking and arguing that people should make their own decisions is ridiculous. Make smoking inconvenient for smokers and allow people in pubs and bars to enjoy smoke free air.
People IN pubs and bars already enjoy smoke free air. The discussion is about outside beer gardens. Where the wind is. There’s also nothing stopping pubs having their own rules against smoking in their beer gardens already. Why must the law be used to criminalise those who smoke?
I’m not a smoker by the way. I’m pro-smoke reduction even, as stated by my point about education, but I’m anti-authoritarian and anti every faucet of human life being criminalised.
People IN pubs and bars already enjoy smoke free air.
Yeah because smoking was banned, and not because the smokers had any decency or concern for everyone else. They quite happily blew smoke to your face.
Health departments are recommending vaping, are they? Are you just making things up?
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/e-cigarettes-could-be-prescribed-on-the-nhs-in-world-first
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/quit-smoking/using-e-cigarettes-to-stop-smoking/
https://www.nhs.uk/better-health/quit-smoking/vaping-to-quit-smoking/vaping-myths-and-the-facts/
That took about 3 seconds of Googling
They are recommending vaping in exchange for smoking. Come on you’re not even trying to good faith argument at this point, you’re just putting forward nonsense that isn’t true and then backing it up by deliberately misunderstanding basic facts.
In exchange for smoking.
As in, not quitting ingesting nicotine. Still inhaling foreign substances into the lungs. Vaping is still shit for you.
In the early 2000s the message was “smoking is bad, here is why, this is what it will do to you, please don’t do it”. That message was sinking in to the general public. Smoking was plummeting.
Then austerity came along around the same time as vaping and it became far more convenient to just ask smokers to vape instead of mass education campaigns.
Now the simple answer is just banning it.
It’s not a solution. It normalises government overreach into day to day life, it others people and makes them targets for discrimination, and doesn’t convince people of the ills of smoking.
It’s a dumb idea that polarises people and doesn’t fix the root issue.
Who’s not arguing in good faith now?
Fair dos. Better off just banning it. Would do me a world of good not to have the temptation.
Yeah bloody government, making laws, making people’s lives better, how dare they.
I liked it back in the old days when 4-year-olds worked down the pit and no one back an eyelid, and then died quietly of tuberculosis. Snowflakes these days…
It’s 2024. Why the fuck is anyone still smoking anyway? Ban it
I don’t really care if they ban it or not I just want them to ban it in public. People want to smoke in private that’s their prerogative and they really couldn’t care one way or the other.
But it actually has to be in private, not just sitting on your doorstep in a dressing gown at 9:30am on a Tuesday with everyone walking past you on the street. That might just be around me though.
